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Manipulation

Author Topic: Manipulation  (Read 23686 times)

Offline burper

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Manipulation
« on: March 24, 2004, 11:05:09 PM »
It's time to stir the RepBot pot again :)

 
« Last Edit: July 24, 2004, 08:37:36 PM by burper »

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Manipulation
« on: March 24, 2004, 11:05:09 PM »

Offline alef

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« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2004, 06:14:53 AM »
Also it should be pointed out that having a counter example doesn't make RepBot worthless. No one has ever claimed that a person's reputation is totally accurate, but it is a strong indicator, mainly of whether your opponent might be a known dropper. And of course who is (or isn't) deserving of a reputation is highly subjective.

As for the Biggles situation, the very fact that he's made so much effort to build up the reputation means that he actually cares what RepBot says, that is success!

Offline burper

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« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2004, 01:46:10 PM »
diane, you never know what is going on in private chat, do you?

 
« Last Edit: July 24, 2004, 08:37:52 PM by burper »

Offline burper

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« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2004, 02:29:14 PM »
Doesn't matter when you made the vouch, the point is, the person has a good rep, and that is a good thing :)

The offensive private chat went on before and during the public stuff.

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Manipulation
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2004, 02:29:14 PM »

Offline Frostie

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« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2004, 10:14:06 PM »
Well a case in point is with freesam. He is a new user and is completely hopeless in front of a p.c. and has an internet connection that has cut more times than i can count !!

This is not all his fault and i still have to finish a three pointer after five times of trying. Unfortunatley it appears that three fibsters have complained gainst him, and i would suspect the resason being his internet connection cutting out.

I feel that rather than attempting to hold on and wait for the poor soul to  reconnect they may have taken the easy option and complained. This is unfortunate because the lad is trying to learn the game and has already got a reputation lower than a snakes belly through no genuine fault of his own doing.

Regards,

Frostie

Offline Biggles

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« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2004, 06:49:02 PM »
I love my fans........my fans love me...........

'nuff said.





Bigg
(The most popular Fibster)



 
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Offline Kari_Grandi

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« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2004, 11:59:30 AM »
Quote
Of course, we never see Biggles actually participating in forums about bg skill.


I'm no fan of Biggles but I have to say, that he has shown us some bg skill in few tourneys.
He won Masters invitational http://fibsleagammon.free.fr/tmaster.htm (very good players in that tourney) and also he is "Fridays 3" overall winner in one month.

Kari

Offline Zorba

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« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2004, 01:59:47 PM »
Biggles opponents in the Masters were 1700-1800 players with one high 1850-1950 player, so I don't think that contradicts an estimated 1750 rating as GNUBG gives him (so far).

1750 is certainly not a bad rating (about rank #600 of 6000+ players on FIBS), but it's a far cry from Biggles_two 2000+ top ten rating and even more so from Biggles 2200+ number two rating.

The difference is almost certainly due to what burper calls "bunny humping" and who knows what else. Nothing new there.

The reason Biggles is never seen participating in forums on bg skill is probably not so much that he wouldn't have anything useful to say about bg, but rather that people wouldn't accept him there, given his all time rating manipulation and offensive language.
 
The fascist's feelings of insecurity run so deep that he desperately needs a classification of some things as successful or superior and other things as failed or inferior. This also underlies the fascist's embracement of concepts like mental illness and IQ tests.  - R.J.V.

Luck is my main skill

FIBS Board backgammon forum

Manipulation
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2004, 01:59:47 PM »

Offline alef

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« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2004, 03:22:54 PM »
zorba, your personalized attack on biggles is a misuse of this board. I am in no way defending biggles himself but unless you have something constructive to say please don't use this place to rant against individuals. Just gag, blind and/or RepBot complaint those players who you think others should avoid and then move on.

Also, surely ratings don't really matter that much? If other people feel so big and important with huge ratings, then let them!

Offline Kari_Grandi

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« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2004, 03:28:21 PM »
Quote
1750 is certainly not a bad rating (about rank #600 of 6000+ players on FIBS), but it's a far cry from Biggles_two 2000+ top ten rating and even more so from Biggles 2200+ number two rating.


I wasnt replying or making any comments about ratings in my previous post.

My point was, that rating is not so meaningful when playing in tourneys. My rating is around 1700 but I've done pretty good in some tourneys so far!
There is a lot of 1500 players who play really good too.

Offline Zorba

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« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2004, 10:49:13 PM »
Alef, I would appreciate it if you don't mess with me about subjects you just have different opinions on than me.

There is no "personalized attack" here. I am just describing this person's behaviour, something which happens on FIBSboard all the time.

All I do here is RESPOND to burpers misrepresentation of facts. As it happens, it was burper himself who brought up Biggles, not me. Note that I give ARGUMENTS and some FACTS too. It has nothing to do with Biggles personally, just his behaviour on FIBS in general, but also in tourneys. Alef, you are also discussing other people's behaviour regulary, so I wonder what your problem is and why you pick me to respond to. It seems rather subjective to me.

As a tourneybot operator, I think you would be interested in abuse like "xxxx uses a bot" during tourney play. At least other TDs seem to understand how that can be very annoying not to mention rude and unsportive.

Could other people here try to give a little more facts and less unsubstantiated opinions please?

As it is, I have been called "anti-american" already by burper (no alef response there..?) without any back up for that claim whatsoever. NIHILIST calls me "the biggest FIBS abuser" (again no alef response), also without any argumentation or quote.

Anyway, I suggest you quit mis-interpreting my posts here alef and react on what I actually write, rather than on what you (wrongly) think I am trying to do.

So, what part of what I wrote here about Biggles is not right according to you?
 
« Last Edit: April 19, 2004, 10:57:49 PM by Zorba »
The fascist's feelings of insecurity run so deep that he desperately needs a classification of some things as successful or superior and other things as failed or inferior. This also underlies the fascist's embracement of concepts like mental illness and IQ tests.  - R.J.V.

Luck is my main skill

Offline Zorba

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« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2004, 11:03:01 PM »
About ratings: I'd say that as long as they are not being manipulated, they are a reliable method for determining one's backgammon skill.

Tournaments where only a few matches are played have a very high luck factor. A rating however, is based on very many matches.

Simulations done by Douglas Zare (and others) show ratings are mostly accurate to within +/- 100 points.
The fascist's feelings of insecurity run so deep that he desperately needs a classification of some things as successful or superior and other things as failed or inferior. This also underlies the fascist's embracement of concepts like mental illness and IQ tests.  - R.J.V.

Luck is my main skill

FIBS Board backgammon forum

Manipulation
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2004, 11:03:01 PM »

Offline burper

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« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2004, 11:09:20 PM »
Zorba, you know I love you like a son.  
« Last Edit: July 24, 2004, 08:38:18 PM by burper »

Offline Zorba

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« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2004, 11:40:41 PM »
LOL, that's okay burper, I know you like to stir the pot as much as I do so I didn't take that too seriously. It was more of an example of how I think someone is hunting one ant when there's a few lions around.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2004, 12:13:40 AM by Zorba »
The fascist's feelings of insecurity run so deep that he desperately needs a classification of some things as successful or superior and other things as failed or inferior. This also underlies the fascist's embracement of concepts like mental illness and IQ tests.  - R.J.V.

Luck is my main skill

Offline hypnosa

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Manipulation
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2004, 03:17:35 PM »
First of all, I  :hart:  repbot!~!  Since I use 3D fibs, which automatically shows someones reputation, I have hardly been dropped. So, great job Burper  :yes:

BUT, today I experienced something that really made me angry, and I still am.
 :devil:  
Someone invited me and he had a very bad rep. So I replied I did not want to play him because of that. Then he complained about me at repbot  :fo:
He said he did that because I was not on FIBS to play. He also followed me everywhere and started stupid chats. I have gagged him now.
But, to get to the point, he is the first person who has complained and I did
not even play him! So, in that way, people can miss use (or abuse??) repbot. Not that my rep is bad now or anything, but it is odd.
Just wanted to say this.

And, I would not like to miss repbot, if he is not on-line, I really miss him   :mellow:
« Last Edit: May 11, 2004, 07:31:18 PM by webrunner »
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Offline burper

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Manipulation
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2004, 04:09:18 PM »
It's all part of the plan hypnosa.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2004, 08:03:17 PM by burper »

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Manipulation
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2004, 04:09:18 PM »

Offline diane

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Manipulation
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2004, 06:44:51 PM »
Thats first complaint always bites dont it!! :D

But, trust me, they get easier.  If you do refuse to play droppers etc - and complain - odds are they will complain / complain back - and many times if they have more than one nick!! ;)

As i said earlier - and burper restated - the important thing is to make a judgements about who made the complaint - if it is someone you know and trust - then ask questions - if you know it is an idiot, and they have vouches from people you trust - take no notice!!  

That is where 3D does fall down a little - there is no breakdown of the information, so when i used it - if a rep came up negative - i would go and find out why (assuming they didnt have 500 saved games :D )


I checked who it was (and added a complaint  :) ) and noticed i have never vouched you Hypnosa !! :(   ( I have corrected that error now )

That is the most annoying thing - i really do need reminders!!!
 
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Offline adrian

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Manipulation
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2004, 09:08:36 PM »
Hmm, after I read your post Diane, I went to check who were those who vouched me and straightened up the things.  :stupid2:   Sorry for the delay my friends!!
Helping people is tricky. Give help to anyone and he will remember it only when he is in need again.

Offline Biggles

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Manipulation
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2004, 03:27:58 PM »
If this post weren't so pathetic, it'd be hysterical.....

MND (IP address - h19n2c2o1026.bredband.skanova.com)

The exact same IP address that Patti has been nuking over and over and over......wasn't HITMAN your last failed attempt at dropping to yourself and cheating?   Aren't you tired of being caught, and then lashing out at others?

Your word isn't worth the can of whipped cream I used with Shuggie's sister....

BTW, about 20 of my complaints are from the same guy (ole_salt) who created multiple nicks with 0 experience to try and smear me.  Alas, they also don't add up to much, obviously.

Have a nice day MND (aka HITMAN, sue, crusher, etc. etc. etc. etc)

May you finally keep a non cheating nick on FIBS for awhile so you can post here.

 :lol:


Bigg
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« Last Edit: May 19, 2004, 03:29:13 PM by Biggles »
[size=8]Winner of the inaugural Master League Tournament and countless other league and mini-tournaments......[/size]

Offline burper

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Manipulation
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2004, 03:32:32 PM »
sue and crusher have optonline addresses.
HITMAN's account has been taken over by Patti, apparently.

Offline Biggles

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« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2004, 03:42:44 PM »
HITMAN was the same IP as MND before Patti snatched it up and nuked it.


I find a high correlation with the type of cheating between the MND/HITMAN ids and the sue/crusher ids, all (except for MND) of which have been nuked.  Can't prove they are related, but the way they were run up in exactly the same fashion, there's a high probability.  Dialing in from more than one IP just isn't that difficult.

Anyway, the HITMAN/MND relationship is enough to hang this sucker outright.  It's why he came after me on this board in the first place.  

So many cheaters, so little time.

Bigg
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Offline MND

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Manipulation
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2004, 12:30:26 PM »
Quote
Quote
1750 is certainly not a bad rating (about rank #600 of 6000+ players on FIBS), but it's a far cry from Biggles_two 2000+ top ten rating and even more so from Biggles 2200+ number two rating.

I wasnt replying or making any comments about ratings in my previous post.

My point was, that rating is not so meaningful when playing in tourneys. My rating is around 1700 but I've done pretty good in some tourneys so far!
There is a lot of 1500 players who play really good too.
Have any problem with accepting that biggles_two strength is not better than 1750 kari?

Take a look at the ongoing masters for example. Biggles has won 4 of 10 matches against opponents rated 1725 in avarage. That gives a permance rating of 1575
Of course there are some good performances too, but  Zorbas estimation seem reasonable to me.
MND

Offline MND

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« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2004, 12:58:31 PM »
Quote
If this post weren't so pathetic, it'd be hysterical.....

MND

The exact same IP address that Patti has been nuking over and over and over......wasn't HITMAN your last failed attempt at dropping to yourself and cheating?   Aren't you tired of being caught, and then lashing out at others?

Your word isn't worth the can of whipped cream I used with Shuggie's sister....

BTW, about 20 of my complaints are from the same guy (ole_salt) who created multiple nicks with 0 experience to try and smear me.  Alas, they also don't add up to much, obviously.

Have a nice day MND (aka HITMAN, sue, crusher, etc. etc. etc. etc)

May you finally keep a non cheating nick on FIBS for awhile so you can post here.

 :lol:


Bigg
(The most popular Fibster)
Hi biggles
Unfortunately there is no history list available, but as a generous gesture of mine I publish the list of my last 100 opponents or so here.
I recommend that you study the ip-number carefully for each one of them, just to make sure there is no cheating involved. Note that there are no games against hitman, sue or crusher here.
Warm regards!
MND

Baumbart
BladeRunner
Buso
CHill
DerJooaah
EddieVedd
Elde
GOOGOLA
GrandKiller
GrimReaper
HAF
HARVEY
HumanIAm
Itchy
K_Rock
Kari_Grandi
Klaus_Bergmann
Leeze
Mojo_
Mort
Nomo
Rammot
Samir
Simon
Travis
True_Blue
Twordzydlo
_Vm
aim
alcasell
bauerus
biddie
bogie
bonehead
carou
celera
charlesl
elis
embun
fightingsaint
flinty
fresh
gambier
gremsky
hanse
hattl
ioni
jonnera
joukol
jps
jvit
jyg
kauboy
kessie
kipros
lbg
lefrog
mastercard
melzi
mime
naldrich
newfrankpsv
paulus
philouCH
picker
pkleidman
pontoon
rinit
ritagru
roderick
ronen
round
saram
sirlad
sobolanul
svito
tenor
vegasvic
vqs
winter_swimmer
wolves
woof
yegulalp

 

Offline Biggles

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« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2004, 04:29:21 PM »
So let me see if I've got this straight.

We're supposed to believe a list supplied by only you, when I already know for a fact that the IP address of HITMAN and your MND were exactly the same, just before Patti nuked the HITMAN nick?

You must think we're all extremely gullible......lol


 :wacko:



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Offline MND

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« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2004, 02:17:51 PM »
Problem with repbot, is that it isnt really a democratic system, since a vouch from a player with high experience points ( 50 000 for example) weighs 50 times more than 50 vouches, from 50 1000 experience point user.
Absolutely anyone can get a good or bad  repbot by getting a few vouches from users with high experience points.

It would be more fair if every vouch or complaint counts the same as long as they are over a minimum, say 50 experience.

MND

Offline diane

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« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2004, 03:44:47 PM »
This approach would annoy me more than a little - since i have 5 complaints by one user and i think it stands currently at 11 by one other user - if all those vouches were worth the same - the effect would be skewed i think.
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Offline lewscannon

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« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2004, 04:31:28 PM »
Quote
BUT, today I experienced something that really made me angry, and I still am.
 :devil:  
Someone invited me and he had a very bad rep. So I replied I did not want to play him because of that. Then he complained about me at repbot  :fo:
He said he did that because I was not on FIBS to play. He also followed me everywhere and started stupid chats. I have gagged him now.
But, to get to the point, he is the first person who has complained and I did
not even play him!
I hope that this wasn't webrunner

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Manipulation
« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2004, 06:09:55 PM »
I thought FIBS was a place to shout and that the backgammon was incidental.

Offline alef

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« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2004, 06:44:15 PM »
Quote
Absolutely anyone can get a good or bad  repbot by getting a few vouches from users with high experience points.
 
That's only using the "ask" which gives the reputation metric. You can use "list" and simply see who is vouching and complaining. But what's best is to vouch a lot and then use "friends" to get the most accurate reputation from the perspective of the people you have vouched for, aim to vouch for people who themselves have vouched a lot and whose opinion you trust.

Also you can shorten these commands to just "a", "l" and "f". See http://repbot.fibsboard.com/

You're right, there is a good argument for capping the weight of a vote at an experience level, but now that RepBot has been established a long time it's perhaps a bit dubious redefining the parameters.

Offline don

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« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2004, 07:16:28 AM »
I don't think anyone questions the value of a RepBot-like utility.  The question here is:  What functions does RepBot provide that are useful, and what functions does RepBot provide that are abused?  RepBot basically provides two functions, one objective, one subjective.  RepBot will give you the number of saved matches a user has (24 hour lag), and RepBot will provide a linkage of friends, ... and enemies.  A brief scan of the posts in this thread provides some comments about the latter:

Quote
alef: As for the Biggles situation, the very fact that he's made so much effort to build up the reputation means that he actually cares what RepBot says, that is success!
Quote
Frostie: I feel that rather than attempting to hold on and wait for the poor soul to reconnect they may have taken the easy option and complained.
Quote
hyposa: Someone invited me and he had a very bad rep. So I replied I did not want to play him because of that. Then he complained about me at repbot

These are just a few examples.  Of course the worst abuse of RepBot occurs when a few users gang up on a new user and use RepBot as a weapon (yes, RepBot has been used and abused to drive new users away from FIBS), but my point is that all of the problems with RepBot are on the subjective side of the functionality.  So the question becomes:  Is the subjective side of RepBot worth keeping when it is routinely misinterpreted and a occasionally abused by regular FIBSters?

Note that I'm not asking any questions about the objective side of RepBot.  It's a wonderful means of accessing what is public knowlege on FIBS_saved_matches.  I suggest that RepBot should be reconfigured to proved only two objective facts, "tell RepBot ask <name>" should give the number of saved matches of <name>, "tell RepBot list <name>" would then list the opponents of the saved matches of <name>.

 
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