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On the online match format

Author Topic: On the online match format  (Read 7004 times)

Offline sixty_something

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On the online match format
« on: June 23, 2010, 05:14:57 PM »
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:frusty: :frusty: :frusty: i chatted in shouts with Zorba and diane today about this .. apparently, most of you see posts in your threads in chronological order .. i do not .. i prefer to see the oldest post in a thread at the top .. this can be controlled under Profile/Preferences with two check boxes

Quote
Show most recent posts at the top.  
Show most recent personal messages at top.  

thus, for me, the original post with the attached board image is always the last post in the thread, i.e. at the bottom requiring me to scroll though all posts in order to even see the board image .. this partially explains to me why other conversations on related topics have been so confusing

for example, i have long argued that poll questions involving a backgammon position could be greatly enhanced by including the board image in the question itself which can be done, but requires an extra step by the creator of the poll which is not terribly user friendly .. the principle reason i have tried so hard to convince others to use that approach is to avoid having to scroll to the last (for me) post in the thread to open and view the attachment .. now, i understand that for you, who see posts in oldest first order, this is neither an issue nor much of a problem

Zorba and diane suggested that i simply reset my preferences to match theirs and perhaps yours .. while that may sound simple enough, isn't that a lot like asking me to order and eat vanilla ice cream instead of my favorite, chocolate, because then you won't have to ask me what i like?

regarding my use of GNUbg, i cannot believe how often people have jumped all over me for using GNUbg to simply:

a) view the board image with a more familiar look or
b) enjoy seeing an analysis and or rollout for myself before others have posted it

i have grown very accustomed to my GNUbg and JavaFIBS interfaces .. i have customized the GNUbg board and pieces such that they are very similar, i.e. red and white pips and bearing off toward the right .. each time i view Zorba's board four steps are required for me to really "see" the problem before i can attempt solving it:

1) finding the attached image (at the end of my thread)
2) enlarging it
3) adjusting to the different appearance and
4) adjusting to the different direction

all of us do that, but for me i find the process so distracting and annoying that it diminishes the fun of going through these moves and questions .. when Zorba recently added the GNUbg ID for the position, that enabled me to view the problem in GNUbg which i really prefer and eliminating 3 of the most annoying 4 steps .. time wise, all i have to do is copy and paste the ID and it is done .. that alone made me a very happy camper, but i also have the benefit of being able to confirm in GNUbg parlance with which i am most familiar the suggested correct move or decision .. when i was as tired as i was last night, both of these i find particularly useful

regarding the problem i had with the GNUbg ID, Zorba indicated there is a known problem with these position and match ID's in GNUbg for situations like this one when the cube has been thrown .. so, i was doubly frustrated last night when i couldn't "see" the problem in the way in which i am accustomed

so, that is where i am coming from .. i like reading posts in a newest first order; i am not cheating, just using GNUbg as my problem viewer; and i am neither afraid to offer a suggestion for improvemet or express myself as i have amply demonstrated

:lol: stog, now i think i know how you feel .. it is not yet 11 AM here and i am ready to lift a pint or two .. however, it sure is nice to not be typing in the blind because your fix for IE 8 works great .. cheers to all :beerdrinkers:
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On the online match format
« on: June 23, 2010, 05:14:57 PM »

Offline diane

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On the online match format
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2010, 03:51:20 AM »
i prefer to see the oldest post in a thread at the top .. this can be controlled under Profile/Preferences with two check boxes

thus, for me, the original post with the attached board image is always the last post in the thread, i.e. at the bottom requiring me to scroll though all posts in order to even see the board image .. this partially explains to me why other conversations on related topics have been so confusing

Zorba and diane suggested that i simply reset my preferences to match theirs and perhaps yours .. while that may sound simple enough, isn't that a lot like asking me to order and eat vanilla ice cream instead of my favorite, chocolate, because then you won't have to ask me what i like?

regarding my use of GNUbg, i cannot believe how often people have jumped all over me for using GNUbg to simply:

a) view the board image with a more familiar look or

1) finding the attached image (at the end of my thread)
2) enlarging it
3) adjusting to the different appearance and
4) adjusting to the different direction

I think the first line in bold is just a typo..so will ignore that.

I dont understand why you want to see newest posts first...that must make very odd reading - do you use
'show all unread posts since last visit' and then hit the 'new' button?  If you do that, you wont have to wade through any pages of previously read material, and can pick up a topic with the last unread reply, and then get the story straight..so to speak.

If you can do that - but really dont prefer to...then onto the next statement.

This is not about making you eat vanilla icecream when you prefer chocolate...this is akin to you saying 'I realise the 20 or so people who regularly eat icecream here every day prefer vanilla, and indeed that some of them are allergic to the chocolate, but I like chocolate and therefore I am not ordering in any more vanilla, and they will all eat chocolate or do without....'

Ideally the forum could serve chocolate and vanilla, but that seems quite difficult to achieve.

I dont want the board in the poll, because it disappears when I hit reply, and I have to remember what it looked like.  Embedding in the first post is the best way around that...although, if the image is stored elswhere in the gallery....then it can be embedded as often as required without actually increasing storage space?  That being the case - embedding is the way forward, and put it in the poll AND every post if you prefer  ;)

As for you needing the board to look familiar for you to be able to play- I have a vivid image of you playing in the final at Las Vegas....sixtie v Nack...Nack plays a move - there are shots, will he get hit?  The tension mounts...sixtie rolls arghhhh, he hits.....!! But.... wait a moment....... I need to input this position to gnubg, so I can turn the image around and look at this in a familiar format, so I can truly understand whether hitting is the right thing to do....

I see boards flying  :laugh: :laugh:

And that is the flippant version of Ricks comment - seriously, you need to look at the board in different direction, fonts, colours and styles if you are to really get to be able to play this game.

The nmost key understanding I got for this game, was when someone pointed out to me you can actually unhook the board in the corner, lay it out in straight line and play past each other.... :blink: :blink:
« Last Edit: June 24, 2010, 03:58:54 AM by diane »
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On the online match format
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2010, 03:51:20 AM »

Offline sixty_something

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On the online match format
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2010, 07:27:10 AM »
I think the first line in bold is just a typo..so will ignore that.
yes, that was a typo .. communication is hard enough when we use the correct words .. it gets really screwy when we don't - sorry about that .. i do prefer to see posts in neweset first order - Last In First Out

I dont understand why you want to see newest posts first...that must make very odd reading - do you use 'show all unread posts since last visit' and then hit the 'new' button?  If you do that, you wont have to wade through any pages of previously read material, and can pick up a topic with the last unread reply, and then get the story straight..so to speak.

If you can do that - but really dont prefer to...then onto the next statement.
asked and answered, but i might add that by setting those as my preferences i never have to fiddle with an extra step .. that extra step, requiring a screen refresh, on my sometimes very slow machine can be a real nuisance .. while i am all about eliminating unneeded nuisance with computers and elsewhere, i recognize that i can be a real nuisance myself at times .. c'est la vie

This is not about making you eat vanilla icecream when you prefer chocolate...this is akin to you saying 'I realise the 20 or so people who regularly eat icecream here every day prefer vanilla, and indeed that some of them are allergic to the chocolate, but I like chocolate and therefore I am not ordering in any more vanilla, and they will all eat chocolate or do without....'

Ideally the forum could serve chocolate and vanilla, but that seems quite difficult to achieve.
some metaphors are just bad to begin with and get worse when extended .. so, agreeing this ain't ice cream, let's move on ;)

I dont want the board in the poll, because it disappears when I hit reply, and I have to remember what it looked like.  
this is the one point i just don't understand .. please take a look at an old problem post i reconstructed recently, Cube 104 - Cubing from off the bar? .. after you have voted and hit reply the results of the poll are shown (which is probably what you'll see if you previously voted) .. included in those results are the poll question and embedded board image (as you can plainly see there) .. so, what do you mean "disappears when I hit reply"?

Embedding in the first post is the best way around that...although, if the image is stored elswhere in the gallery....then it can be embedded as often as required without actually increasing storage space?  That being the case - embedding is the way forward, and put it in the poll AND every post if you prefer  ;)
i also advocate attaching (or embedding) the board image to the first post in addition to embedding it in the actual poll question itself  .. had i not attached the image, i would not have been able to re-construct the Cube 104 problem after the image hosting service i originally used closed .. besides, if "that" (the image disappearing) never happens as i just demonstrated (i  think) there is no need of a "best way around"

As for you needing the board to look familiar for you to be able to play- I have a vivid image of you playing in the final at Las Vegas....sixtie v Nack...Nack plays a move - there are shots, will he get hit?  The tension mounts...sixtie rolls arghhhh, he hits.....!! But.... wait a moment....... I need to input this position to gnubg, so I can turn the image around and look at this in a familiar format, so I can truly understand whether hitting is the right thing to do....

I see boards flying  :laugh: :laugh:

And that is the flippant version of Ricks comment - seriously, you need to look at the board in different direction, fonts, colours and styles if you are to really get to be able to play this game.

The nmost key understanding I got for this game, was when someone pointed out to me you can actually unhook the board in the corner, lay it out in straight line and play past each other.... :blink: :blink:
need? i didn't say i needed to see the board in a familiar pattern, did i? when tired, rushed, or distracted, it certainly helps, but it sure isn't necessary .. i couldn't agree more with regards to seeing the board in different ways -  directions and styles .. that is just common sense .. i have reversed the direction of bear-off in my on-line play for weeks at a time .. while a little difficult to become accustomed to at first, it makes little difference in the end .. thus, my on-line preference is me white, you red, with my bear-off toward the lower right .. but i am not going to send boards flying in Vegas when i can't have my way

moreover, it never ceases to amaze me here and elsewhere on line the speed with which we all seem to jump into shoulding contests, i.e. you should this, you should do that .. these are most easily recognized with phrases like "you need to ______" .. maybe that is how you perceive my repeated suggestions to look for a different way to compose a poll .. i am not intending it that way any more than i suspect you are above .. it just comes off that wasy on-line when these words are our one and only chance to express ourselves

regarding, my proposal of embedding the board image within the question, i am merely presenting an alternative which i think is visually and functionally superior

i could give a flying flip how anyone, including me prefers to do or see something - to each his or her own .. but as an experienced user and composer of polls involving board positions, i strongly feel that when a question is based on a board image the most effective way to ask, answer, and review the question and results is to embed the image within the question itself .. i have demonstrated ad nauseum this is doable - even the angels can do no more

all i can add is a final plaintive, try it you might like it

this is all a big distraction to the main event here anyway .. i tried to have this conversation in our moderator forum to avoid this spill over about editing and style, but here we go again .. so, sorry for the distration, if any for you readers .. otherwise, thanks for reading and thanks for replying, diane
« Last Edit: June 25, 2010, 07:36:06 AM by sixty_something »
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Offline Zorba

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Re: On the online match format
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2010, 08:27:38 AM »
Hi folks, I hope you don't mind me moving these articles into one seperate thread. I would like to keep the online match threads focused on the actual moves and decisions, so it's easily accessible by anyone, looking for opinions, bot analysis etc. Then more general posts such as these can go in this thread, or if you wish, somewhere else. Thanks!
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Re: On the online match format
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2010, 08:27:38 AM »

Offline sixty_something

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Re: On the online match format
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2010, 12:23:07 PM »
 :cool: great idea
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Offline ah_clem

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Re: On the online match format
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2010, 05:09:51 PM »
It's not only a great idea, I'd take it a step farther and create a child board under Fibsboard Forum Matches for meta-discussion of how matches are run - since this discussion is not about this particular match (5)  it makes more sense to place it under a more general thread.

The child thread could have a sticky topic that's an introduction to the forum matches and some FAQs and we could point new participants to that resource instead of recapitulating it every time someone new shows up. 

Offline stog

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Re: On the online match format
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2010, 07:35:36 PM »
there is already a board here -- this one!

Offline sixty_something

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Re: On the online match format
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2010, 02:19:05 PM »
we can't seem to get away from discussing this topic in other threads, but let's please try .. there probably aren't more than a small handful of us that really care anyway .. for others, i suspect our dialog is either or both boring and confusing ;)

for our latest comments, see my newest problem post at Cube 122 - Let the race begin?
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Re: On the online match format
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2010, 02:19:05 PM »

Offline stog

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Re: On the online match format
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2010, 02:24:33 PM »
this board  is for fibsboard match minutia -- your link is to backgammon problems..

i was asked by clem and you to put guidelines etc for forum matches and discussions about such in one place - this i have, here in the parent board -

http://www.fibsboard.com/fibsboard-forum-matches/
remember to scroll down below the child boards.......
« Last Edit: June 26, 2010, 02:57:05 PM by stog »

Offline sixty_something

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Re: On the online match format
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2010, 03:05:38 PM »
GOOD GRIEF, as Charlie Brown would say .. whether we are discussing a poll question in a forum match or in a problem, the topic of displaying the board image embedded in the poll question is the SAME .. isn't it?

it is certainly how this thread began (see below) and why we chose to move it into a seperate topic .. maybe the title of the thread does not fit .. regardless, my point is that we are polluting our threads in both our forum matches and now problems with discussions on formatting, style, or whatever that are way off topic from the questions themselves .. for other readers, as well as ourselves, this is just plain confusing and frustrating .. it is for me
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Offline stog

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Re: On the online match format
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2010, 03:44:51 PM »
we moved the thread because it was in  fibsboard forum match 5 - and would be better seen in the parent board for times when match 5 was just a wee memory in aged fibsboarders crania

this remember is the 'parent board' the actual matches are the 'children'

Offline socksey

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Re: On the online match format
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2010, 02:41:13 PM »
] .. i prefer to see the oldest post in a thread at the top .. this can be controlled under Profile/Preferences with two check boxes

Thx, 60!   :cool:  That was the answer to my problem mentioned in another thread.   :yes:

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Re: On the online match format
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2010, 02:41:13 PM »

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