Team League. You have a MORAL choice !

[EddieVedd]

With the start of Souptree's "breakaway" Team League approaching, I feel obliged to inform those who are unaware, the reasons behind a seemingly identical Team League being created.

For nearly 8 years the FibsLeagammon - Team League has been organised by a few for the enjoyment of many with next to no problems along the way. It supports and is supported by Tomawaky's fantastic Fibsleagammon site which hundreds of us have enjoyed for years.

In part this all changed in July last year when "tryout" (the organiser of the FLG Team League) took a stand after taking deep offence to an attack by "souptree", "NIHILIST" and "houtx". Then prospective members of a Team. I won't go through the entire story but rather direct you to the post that initiated the rift.

Now i warn you it is long, but encourage you to read as much as you can if you intend participating in EITHER Team League. I do this because those who chose to play in the "new" one, I believe,  will be viewed as supporting the actions of in particular "souptree" & "NIHILIST", who continue to offer terms such as "seig heil" and "facist" to "tryout" (a German national) in tells and shouts.

This is your chance to take a stand ! Please make the most of it. Here's the link...

Ban of Team brb from Team League.

If it helps, I believe I make a reasonable summary on page 3, but will quote the best short version made by "dorbel" again at the top of page 3 because this respected BG veteran put it so well.

Posted by dorbel July - 21st 2004.

"Every tournament or league that I have ever seen reserves the right to refuse entry to any player, without being obliged to give any reason or offer any redress. This rule appears to me to be eminently sensible. Refusing entry to NIHILIST on the grounds that he had created another nick may not be particularly fair or justified under any specific rules, but tryout is within his rights to refuse.
The invention of the name "try_fascism_out" is however particularly provocative and offensive. Souptree's cowardly assertion that this is in fact some sort of genuine political statement is patently ludicrous. It is a calculated insult.
It seems to me that to accuse somebody of being a fascist or, as NIHILIST implies in his post, a nazi and/or racist, goes far beyond acceptable standards. One can hardly be blamed if one draws the conclusion that souptree and NIHILIST are indeed, unsuitable entrants for a fun league, where the accent should be on friendly competition between players from all over the world.
I have never met tryout, but I have played him and found him to be a notably pleasant and sporting opponent. "

If you agree with this I ask you to boycott "souptree's" Team League and continue to support the FibsLeagammon site where friendship and fun is the priority.
Sincerely,

EddieVedd.

[diane]

Whilst I was actively involved in the thread you mention, stating my disagreement with what had taken place, things have moved along since then.

The creation of the new league is more to do with events since that time, than those actual events.

There were problems experienced with, in particular, one team - which seemed to have the approval of the TD running that league.  No action was seen to be taken regarding several displays of extremely bad sportsmanship - every bit as bad as anything mentioned in that thread you happily cite.  Seems if the TD is your friend - pretty much anything is ok - and as long as it isnt him you are calling names - all will be well.  

So, as a result of these actions - we lost one respected team one season - and as the bad behaviour continued - we lost two more in the next - mine included. These were teams prepared to actively state why they left.

When the current season started - only 6 teams remained in that league - seems there were a few problems other than those I happen to know about.

One thing that is repeatedly stated is - "if you dont like it - run your own" - well souptree has - and it seems people were ready for the change.  

In line with many valid points made in that previous thread - this league will be managed by a committee - elected by the teams playing in the league - rather than a single individual - which has to be a major step forward, and shows something positive can be brought out of any situation, if people are listening.

[souptree]

If you want to try to make this a souptree vs. tryout issue, you can try to misdirect people all you want, but it's just inaccurate.

The problem has always been about arbitrary enforcement of the rules.

Hence the necessity of a Dispute Resolution Committee., which is the PRIMARY distinction between the two leagues, and which could have prevented most of the problems people have had over the past couple years very easily, had anyone had the foresight to think of it sooner.

One is governed by those participating, the other is governed by an almighty overseer who sees fit to enforce rules when it is convenient to him.  There are at least a dozen players who feel the same.

That silly thread, in which a surprisingly large contingent of participants show themselves completely devoid of the sarcasm gene, while (subjectively) entertaining and easily looted for that which is intentionally offensive, never does address the real issue, the necessity for self-government in the league.

[socksey]

Without taking sides on any issue, I have currently joined a team that is to my liking and it happens to be signed up in the souptree team league.  This is purely coincidental.  I will explain because I want in no way to validate the actions of the people involved in "the great namecalling dispute".   :angry:    

Mookie volunteered to be team captain, and asked me to play on a team.  Because I love mookie of the feet fetish, always have fun with him, and because it relieves me from acting as team captain, I accepted.  

I mentioned to Mookie that I wasn't sure I should play in one league and not the other and wondered if he would be willing to also join the other team event.  Mookie regretted that would be over extending himself, and so, can only play in the one team event.    -_-

I have the greatest respect for tryout and would not wish to ever offend him in any way.  I hope that someone asks me to be a member of a team in his team league, but I can't captain another team myself.  I, too, am extended to the max.

The disputes on Fibs have always saddened me.  I think of Fibs as a family, and, of course, want all my family to get along, live and let live, without calling hurtful names, and without disputes of any kind.  It seems it is too much to ask of this group of adults to behave like responsible adults and get along by communicating until there comes an equitable understanding.  So be it.  I repeat, I am not taking sides.   I'll play in both if I can manage it.   <_<  

I think there is room for two team leagues on Fibs.  I am happy to have souptree expend his energies on a tournament.  I am happy to have lots more people doing the same.  I appreciate all the tourney directors who have worked hard to bring more fun to Fibs where I like to play best.  

socksey



"If at first you don't succeed, try again. Then quit. There's no use being a dxxx fool about it." - W.C.Fields

[NIHILIST]

Eddie, you're a small-minded, vindictive txxx. Get over it.


NIHI

[Tomawaky]

As usual socksey put the right answer  
Hello Socksey  

As I said, If you ask me which team league to sign, I will answer tryout's one cause I respect him.
But for me 2  team leagues is twice more fun  

Now, the behaviour of TDs is another problem and if somebody don't like him/her. It is obvious that he will not sign up in his/her event.

Don't waste your time preventing people what to do. They're free and know what they want. And if they would be wrong, they will know it in time.



Enjoy backgammon and please if you don't like me and what I do, do not sign to my league  
There is so many place.....

[mrbond]

I believe I have the solution to this dilemma.

As I see it, maybe all participants playing in souptree's league, must as a general rule be rude and insulting to their opponent at least once during their match. Just to keep things interesting  The opponent must accept this is a neccesity and must give as well as they take. But I do urge that after the match is played the opponents kiss and make up, and non of the insults are taken to heart. Please note however no personal insults should enter the debate.

On the other hand, we can have only curtious and polite players entering tryout's league tourney. The player must give love and respect to their opponent (but don't go over the top thou   )  

Please don't think that I believe souptree is rude or that anyone joing his league are nasty folks.... far from it!  It just seems to me that some differntials need to be made between the two very similar tourneys. This option will also be good for all the schitzophrenics with mulipule personalities/nicks  

mrbond  

[adamosad]

I think there is a possible and feasible solution!!!

What about changing the number of members in each team from 3 to 4 (or 2) (5 or more is not a feasible solution).

Then team structure will change and the two leagues will not be identical any more...
Both will remain TEAM Leagues and only one simple rule must be changed in any of the two tourneys....

Of course this will happen if and only if tryout or souptree want to end this story. One of them must be willing to do thatââ,¬Â¦.

[EddieVedd]

Things have not "moved along" since then. The racial abuse has continued by these few individuals and no hint of an apology has been forthcoming.

I have been a loud advocate of "if you don't like it make your own" theory and welcome any new tournaments. I just want those who are unaware of soup and nihi's method of conflict resolution to be informed before they are unwittingly victimised.

Of course it is a soutree vs tryout issue. The problem has always been their unrepentant vicious attack. They are the masters of misdirection. The real issue was/is that their actions significantly hurt a voluteer organiser and offended others. As it slowly got worse they were never men enough to admit they were wrong.

By all the quiet nice fibsters sitting on the fence a subtle approval, acceptance, of this behaviour is promoted. Soup's Team League provides a rare opportunity to say you do not condone racial attacks and will not support those who chose to make them.

I'm vindictive ! lol More of the same from Nihilist.  The only way I will come close to "getting over" this is seeing your sincere apology to tryout.

Thankyou to those who have messaged me over the last 24 hours stating they will be registering with FibsLeagammon Team League next session I can't wait.

[NIHILIST]

This is souptree's tourney. I am not involved in it, I am not playing in it. I wish him success in the undertaking.

My only apology is that I apologize for the sorry state of the world and that you and that xxxxxxx xxxxx tryout are still breathing and walking. Both of you can go xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.


NIHI

[souptree]

It is very clear that some key points need to be made.  This is a long post, but I am sure you will all find it worth your time.  Grab a snack and read it twice.

First of all, THE TWO LEAGUES ARE NOT "IDENTICAL", as EddieVedd has requested you believe.  The difference is in how they are run.

1.  Disputes need to have a logical way to be resolved. What kind of system is it to have one guy decide everything, when he is also a player, and thus has an interest in the results?  I'm not casting any aspersion on tryout, but there have been a couple choices he's made which have affected season outcomes to his benefit, or to the detriment of teams with players he has personal issues with, and while I am in no way accusing him of cheating (and, for the record, DON'T believe he did or would), the possibility of the appearance of any sort of impropriety must be removed.  In the new league rules, disputes are resolved via a committee of fellow players from multiple teams, duly elected each season by their fellow players.  This is a major way that THE TWO LEAGUES ARE NOT "IDENTICAL".

2.  adamosad has made an excellent suggestion as to how a modification to the rules could be made to create a fun new league.  Fortunately, it is one that is already compensated for in the new league rules' design:

After each Season, there will be a one week window for the submission of proposed rules changes. Any player who played the Season just ended and will be playing in the upcoming Season may submit proposed rules changes.

Each proposed change will be voted on by all Players carrying over to the next Season. Only Players who played in the previous Season and will be playing in the upcoming Season will be allowed to vote on proposed rule changes.

Examples of rules changes that have already been proposed include changing from 5 point Matches to 7 point Matches, changes in how rankings are allocated, etc.

Please note that to make the first Season as confusion-free as possible, there will be no rules modifications until Season II.

Additionally, there has been the suggestion to spin off a second league for 2-person teams, which was also agreed to be voted on at the end of the first season.  I think adamosad's suggestions is a good one, and would be sensible to include in the list OF WHAT THOSE INVOLVED IN THE LEAGUE WANT CONSIDERED TO BE PART OF THEIR LEAGUE  -- another key aspect in which THE TWO LEAGUES ARE NOT "IDENTICAL".

(Breath.  You are not even CLOSE to done, people.)

Also -- and I would like to state this IN THE STRONGEST POSSIBLE TERMS:  I *DO NOT* consider this "souptree's league".  Some of you have already been requested not to use this term, and the rest of you are so requested now.  I will explain the reasons I feel this way, as they are several.

1.  The leagues (all of them) should be run in a democratic fashion.  I feel this very strongly.  They are not "owned" by the TDs, they are "owned" by their participants, without whom there is nothing to "own".  This whole caste system of TDs that has developed is simply ridiculous.  I am sorry if the idea of this is offensive to any TDs out there -- it's really nothing personal -- but it is the right way to do things.  Being a TD should be more like being a secretary than a judge, and nothing like being an autocrat.  Up until now, secretary and judge have been muddled together as one role, often in combination with the role of participant.  This needs to change.  The roles of secretary and judge need to be divided, and if participant is to be combined with judge, it must be multiple participants.  This is only fair.

2.  There is nothing innately infallible about my powers of judgement.  I do not consider myself Solomon simply because I have bothered to create a league, and I am not prepared to place myself as a figure of authority for anyone, or an adequate judge of anything.  I do not want to be seen as the guy to run to to help junior solve his little problems.

3.  In fact, I don't even want to be a TD!  I don't want to serve on the Dispute Resolution Committee either!  I created this league for two reasons, neither of which had a single iota to do with wanting to take over tryout's league:

First is that there was a groundswell for it, and I felt somebody ought to address that.  Enough people wanted a league to play in who didn't feel they had one available to them, or one that they felt operated under terms they could play under, that a vaccuum was formed.  Mostly I did it because I want to play in team league, and so do a lot of others.

Second, I am answering socksey's call in that ridiculous thread Eddie linked to, to put up or shut up, and this league and the website I have created for it, are intended to be a concrete contribution back to the FIBS community that has given me an amazing amount of entertainment, education, and interesting times over the years.  Her call was on point and I appreciated it at the time, as I do now.      

(Breath.  Put on your listening ears, people.)

Now, please allow me to categorically state once and for all that I DID NOT CREATE THIS LEAGUE TO SPITE TRYOUT.

Should I repeat that?

I DID NOT CREATE THIS LEAGUE TO SPITE TRYOUT.

In red?

I DID NOT CREATE THIS LEAGUE TO SPITE TRYOUT.

Thank you.

(Breath.  Now.  Knowing FIBS and it's denizens the way I do, I know that I may now continue with the absolute certainty that what I just said will be completely and blithely ignored by the major participants, so I regret to inform you that this post still goes on.  And on.  And on.  Because some people are so blind to the obvious, that they just need every single little thing explained to them.

So let us continue to explain the obvious.  I apologize to those of you downloading this at 56k.  There's a lot of obvious to cover.)

Some things some of you may not know since while you speak of me, you don't speak with me.

1.  Tryout had such a big problem with that thread, Eddie, that I was welcomed to play again in his league the following season, in spite of my "unrepentant attitude" towards making what I freely admit was a calculated insult.  I then voluntarily withdrew myself from participation in his league.  I was not, as far as I was told, unwelcome to continue playing.  It was, incidentally, a load of fun poking the pigs in the box with a stick by refusing to admit that it was a calculated insult.  But the narcissistic fun turned out to reveal real philosophical flaws in the underlying system.  These real and legitimate issues have still yet to be addressed with a single word.

I am, however, prepared to admit that part of the reason for this failure to address the real issues at the heart of this problem, rather than the hyperbole laid over it, lies with me.

2.  I never wanted two team leagues.  I still don't want two team leagues.  But an environment needs to exist where two players can have personal differences, and still be able to play fairly.  If someone who doesn't like me is making a judgement call on something regarding my team, I can accept that, but I want to know someone I do trust agrees with the process that led to that decision, even if I don't.  In other words, I would like the appearance of an attempt at objectivity.  I may not like the call, but at least that way I can accept that it isn't vindictive.  I feel this is a reasonable thing to expect as a participant (particularly when the only judge is also a participant!), and it's easily accomplished.

3.  It has always been my hope that these two leagues would merge at some point.  It would be right that they do.  I understand if that will not be possible, and there is clearly enough support for both that each can go on separately, with each being successful.  There are 40 players in the new league, and I'm sure this hubbub will result in at least that many in the old league.  But I would rather see one league with 80 players than two leagues with 40.  I certainly have NO interest in seeing one league with 18, which is the pathetic vision I saw a month ago when I created this new league.  But if we play this right, we'll wind up with a single league, stronger than ever, with dozens of new participants, and a better way of resolving problems.  Nothing creates celebrity like controversy.  If not, both leagues will go on, both will be much more successful than the last incarnation of the team league, and that will be a good thing too, if less than ideal.  I doubt I'll ever see a word of thanks for all the publicity and new players Eddie is crowing about, but he ought to recognize who put them there, and not be such an egotist as to believe that the side effect of growing the "old" league was ever unexepected or unwanted.  In fact it has always been part of the plan.  He should also be aware, that it was my hope and expectation that exactly that kind of growth in response would be the result of my creating this league.

A large part of the reason the rules for the two leagues are the same and I resisted changes to the rules for the first season was that it was hoped that this excercise would enable precisely this discussion, i.e. the primary idea behind creating a second league was to force the issue of self-government.  The idea of having two leagues go on ad infinitum has always seemed a fallback plan to me, although certainly the support for it is dramatically stronger in the fibs community than I expected it would be.

4.  It was also my original hope that tryout would be one to serve on the Dispute Resolution Committee.  Indeed, I would vote for him, today, or any other day, past or future.  I genuinely do appreciate the creation of the Team League, and all of tryout's work over the years to foster it into something viable, as I have said repeatedly.  It's been a fun league to participate in for years, and in many ways, it's the league I enjoy most.  tryout is the one who should get the credit for that.  Believe it or not, but my goal was not then, nor is it now to "steal" the league from him.  I prefer to share it, since as far as I am concerned, it belongs to all of us.

Now.  As a gesture of goodwill towards this end, I hereby retract my statements regarding tryout.  tryout is not a Nazi, nor a fascist, and nobody involved with this discussion, including tryout or myself supports anything related to fascism.  Further, it was never a "racial attack" (another distortion, Eddie, thankyouverymuch).  It never had anything to do with tryout being German, as was pointed out REPEATEDLY in that silly thread to deafening silence.  My own teammate is German!  I do not consider the terms "Nazi" or "fascist" to refer to Germans specifically at all.  There are other terms that other people use as "racial attacks" against Germans (Kraut, Hun, Fritz), and you have NEVER heard me use them, nor will you.  There are Nazis here in America, Nazis in Saudi Arabia, and Nazis in lots of other places, and they should all drop dead.  It WAS an attack, but it is relevant to note that it was a PHILOSOPHICAL attack, not a RACIAL attack.  If it was taken as anything other than a PHILOSOPHICAL attack, that was an incorrect evaluation.  I hope you can now distinguish between the two, Eddie.  It's truly shocking you've been unable to up until now.

It was also a raised middle finger for the unfair treatment of one of my teammates via inconsistent enforcement of rules, and if the usage was taken as anything more, it was so taken in error.  Our team was banned for a season, which was a fair punishment for our crime of the raised middle finger as far as I was concerned.  We served our time without complaint, and played in the league again.  No big deal.

Some of you may be aware that I invited tryout to join the new league.  I thought my invitation was polite, and it was honestly intended.  I really DO want his participation, not in "both" leagues, but in one league that is run by the participants.  I received a ridiculing response, which I have no problem recognizing that I fully deserved, and I did respond back with "Sieg Heil," for which usage in particular I would like to specificaly apologize (and not because of anything Eddie or anyone else has posted, as this was being typed before his most recent contribution to misinformation), as I should have let go of old grudges.  I raised my finger, we went through the hoopla, and that should have been the end of it.  I should not have felt the need to raise it again, despite tryout's impolite reply, and I regret doing so, and will not again.  I should have had more self control given the larger purpose of my task.

So I am willing to concede that we probably picked an overly inflammatory way of expressing legitimate displeasure with a legitimate issue.  I am also willing to concede that rather than nip it in the bud, which would have been easy enough to do, I intentionaly allowed my own fun at fanning a forest fire to come before stopping a snowball from rolling down the mountain.  I could do so again now, and believe me, my friends, my little imp is sorely tempted, but I will agree to choose a different way to raise my finger to tryout in the future, should it be necessary, acknowledging the sensitivity that he apparently has to the reference, even if that sensitivity is, in my estimation, unfounded.  See:

I will also categorically state that no German today should feel even a single moment's worth of guilt for the crimes of the Nazis in the 1930s and 1940s, unless they are 80 years old, and even then, probably not, because hopefully those bastards are all dead and being stuck with pitchforks by now.  It is not our job to repent for the crimes of our forefathers, just to learn from them, and do better ourselves.  I think humanity has done much in that regard.  To me this should be obvious, and I approached all of this from the standpoint that this would be a given to everyone, but apparently, it actually needs to be explicitly stated.

(Breath.  You're still not done, people.  Sorry.  But the good news is you're in the home stretch!)

Now, all of that being said, if the metaphor was received, that which it represented never was.  I am sorry, but "I have spoken, and those who don't agree, despite the arbitrary nature of my decsion, can deal with it or STFU" is a somewhat totalitarian approach to directing things, particularly when the decision-maker is a participant.  In democracies, ejudication has a means of appeal.  In dictatorships, ejudication means Siberia, if you're lucky.  Perhaps this less baiting approach to saying the same thing may fall on more responsive ears.  I am hopeful that it will.

I hope this has clarified some things, and that you can now stop propogating the unfounded myth that this is a souptree vs. tryout issue, which it is not, never has been, and will continue not to be.  I don't even know tryout, and although I can be a real bastard when I want to be, I am not now, nor have I ever been, in spite of my best outward appearances to the contrary, looking to make enemies on FIBS.

But I take each day as it comes.

It isn't necessary for everyone to like each other.  But it would be nice if we could find a way to play backgammon anyway.  Just think how nice it will feel when you win.  

The new league will begin Tuesday, as planned, and the first season will be played according to schedule.  I am hopeful that the intervening two months can be used to find a way to move forward and make a single team league that is better than ever.  If not, well, thanks for coming to our seminar.  There are cookies and punch on the table at the back, as well as brochures.

In conclusion, I speak for myself, and nobody speaks for me.  Please don't put words in my mouth again, nor take others' words to represent my opinions.  Life isn't a series of monoliths, and I operate alone.

Your humble savant,
soup

[diane]

IN a VERY BRIEF response to that   can I point out how successful this committee approach turned out to be when used by dorbel in the international tournament.  In my opinion, it makes those 'judged' feel like they had a fair crack of the whip - and those making the decisions have a much easier time - since it is not their word alone which decides the outcome.

(Just in case someone was winding up to say something rude about committees   )

[Tomawaky]

It is very clear that some key points need to be made.  This is a long post, but I am ........

I was wrong, sorry socksey  
but here comes the right answer  

Soup's speech must be considered.

I respect completely a person who takes time and has this will to express his vision of the subject. That proves in a certain way its implication in this league and its will to lead it to good term.

Now I just can say Good luck for both Team League. And we'll all see what they become in the futur.

[adamosad]

I agree with you Tomawaky  

Souptree, i am happy to hear you say that "THE TWO LEAGUES ARE NOT IDENTICAL"
I hope they will remain non-identical!!!

[socksey]

I was wrong, sorry socksey 
but here comes the right answer

LOL  

You had more to work with than I did.  

Thanks for your thoughts, souper.  Somehow, I knew you had it in you.    Would be nice if everyone would think a second before speaking, but we don't always and we do stuff our mouthes with our feet at times.  

Here's hoping tryout, Eddie, and soup can merge, somehow, by picking up the pieces and putting them together again.      

For this season, I am still looking to be on a team in tryout's team league.  Let me know if anyone wants me on their team.

socksey



"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon." - Susan Ertz

[Kari_Grandi]

Let me know Socks, if you want me to be in your team. I'm ready to play again.

[Tomawaky]

socksey Kari and Tomawaky !

[socksey]

Whoooooooooooooo hooooooooooooooo!     What a group!  

socksey



"He is simply a shiver looking for a spine to run up." - Paul Keating

[adamosad]

socksey Kari and Tomawaky !

What about me???    

[tryout]

I won't have the time until next week for a detailed reply in this thread. So this is only a brief statement.

Souptree's latest post comes very surprisingly after his on and ongoing attacks, insults and spite against me. Therefore, I'm far from sure whether there is anything substantial behind those words or it's simply again calculated. Judging from the only way I've learned to know him it can only be another attack. But we'll have to see.

Well, the latest I got from him was a FIBS message with "SIEG HEIL!" as content.

It's interesting to note that souptree did not approach me in a civilised manner and neither tried to convince me of dorbel's idea of a committee at any time.

Also, quite some parts of his post were condradictory. There are lots of things that were convoluted and wrongly depicted.

E.g.:

Tryout had such a big problem with that thread, Eddie, that I was welcomed to play again in his league the following season, in spite of my "unrepentant attitude" towards making what I freely admit was a calculated insult. I then voluntarily withdrew myself from participation in his league. I was not, as far as I was told, unwelcome to continue playing. It was, incidentally, a load of fun poking the pigs in the box with a stick by refusing to admit that it was a calculated insult.

I specifically showed good will to allow him to enter the last season with a new team even after the amount of abuse I got. But a great way of seeing this! Hey, and obviously if someone admits that the insult was fully calculated and carefully aimed -- woohoo, it doesn't exist anymore! -- Sorry, but where and how did you get raised???

Unfortunately, I don't have the time right now to further address the other contradictions.

Apart from that I'd like to state that the accusations of ever having met an unfair decision for Team League or one that had anything to do with me as a player or my team are utter bullshit. (One was a ridiculous request to ban an entire team for the behaviour of one person, which was certainly not nice, but by far didn't warrant this request and was even heavily provoked by the requesting party. The other was a requested forfeit that I couldn't give due to misdirected contact mails.) Again, I can only post more details in a few days when I have more time. Then I'll also be able to post the endless whining and insults from soutree's team, in particular from zyxtcba.

Finally, souptree's ongoing attempts of trying to make fun of EddieVedd's posts, which are and were very precise and thoughtful, neither support to believe souptree has suddenly turned around 180Ã,°. But again, it's up to him to back it up.