Team League. You have a MORAL choice !

[tryout]

Because it is that important I'm posting this in a seperate mesage. See my statement to the rest of this topic in my former reply.

It is not and will never be in any way acceptable nor tolerable to see the use of fascist or racist expressions or insults!

[span style=\'font-size:12pt;line-height:100%\']If the sender claims to have meant it as a joke or whatnot it merely shows his outstanding lack of a grasp of history. It does not change the expression or its meaning in any way nor does it lessen the disgusting and despicable statement at all![/size][/span]

Anybody who doesn't realize this must be blind to the time we live in. There is no single country in this world where (luckily only a small percentage but far too many anyway) people don't follow fascist and racist tendencies. It is a must to take a stand against this and cannot only but has to be repeated over and over! Unfortunately, people forget far too easily.

[soky]

I don't want to to comment this argument, but add a link:

http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/19/19447/1.html

It seems as if US-Americans have a special, unique type of "humour" ...
I guess this cultural misunderstanding is part of the problem as well ....

[souptree]

Well, the latest I got from him was a FIBS message with "SIEG HEIL!" as content.

I just apologized for leaving that message, and instead of taking it as something constructive, you announce it as if I didn't just state my regret for it?

Does this mean you don't accept the apology?  I tried to make it clear it was meant sincerely, and it was.  If you are just going to state that everything I say is a lie based on the fact that I was the one who said it, then what is the point of my saying anything?  If you want an apology, then you should accept it.

As for zyx's team, I sent my match request emails, I played my matches and I kept my big mouth shut, in case you didn't notice.  I don't agree with your decision on that match result, but that doesn't mean that you can post his words to represent me.  The only things I'm guilty of there is silently disagreeing with your decision, and having my inbox flooded by others.

BTW, I didn't even know about dorbel's tourney until diane's post.  And what would have been the point of coming to you with a suggestion in a civilized manner when you can't even accept an apology from me for calling you a fascist?!  As for asking for a team to be banned, I've never asked for anyone to be banned from anything, and I don't even know what that references.

Also -- tryout is right, I should have noted that his allowing us to play again was very gracious.  I meant to add that in, and it slipped my mind.

In between addressing all the contradictions, maybe you could find some time to address some of the positive things that are in there.  If you read it again with the mindset that I am attempting to resolve this with you in a respectful way and move forward constructively, you will find they are there.

With respect,
soup

[don]

It seems I'm the one, as usual, who caused this whole mess.

I resigned from team-brb because tryout would do nothing to deal with abusive behavior to me by certain members of other teams.  (IMO, polite behavior should be required when dealing with tournament matters.)  Then tryout objected to my replacement, NIHILIST.  Many of you know that I'm no friend to NIHI, but tryout created a situation by his response to NIHI's membership which resulted in some sarcastic behavior by some people who took tryout's sudden attack of morality as amusing.  I even found it amusing, and had to side with NIHI.

When soup started his league, I encouraged him but refused to join because I didn't and don't see anything in his rules to stop or punish abusive behavior.  I still encourage him in his efforts, and can see little more in any criticism of souptree than typical FIBS' flames (which should not be a factor in any league or tournament play).

[diane]

That is interesting background don - and would have found a better home in the original thread - then perhaps more of us would have been prepared for events the next season - when, once again - the same and worse insults were levelled at players other than tryout.  At that point

It is not and will never be in any way acceptable nor tolerable to see the use of fascist or racist expressions or insults!

seemed very far from his mind - so it needs qualifying - it is not ok - unless you happen to be a friend of his.

Roll on the committee approach I say.

[dorbel]

Tryout would have a better claim to the moral high ground if he objected to all nazi abuse, rather than just when it is aimed at him. Wallenstein and BushSucks were both flooded with this type of filth in the team league, but tryout felt unable to take any action. His claim that this abuse was provoked does nothing to justify his inaction in that case. If provocation is sufficient excuse for this sort of muck, then NIHI would have been justified in his filthy abuse as well wouldn't he? After all, he was provoked by being banned from team league on the grounds that he wanted to use the lower rated of his two nicks as I recall. This ban was so illogical that one can't really believe that tryout was acting in an even handed way on that occasion either. I have no personal gripe against tryout, though he has been outstandingly rude to me on several occasions, but I am bound to say that if his team league no longer attracts a good crowd, then it is no surprise. Well meaning he may be, but efficient and even handed, he 'aint.

[NIHILIST]

Well said. You occasionally get one right.


NIHI

[Zorba]

Banning NIHILIST is the sign of any good, experienced TD!

The guy has caused trouble to other people from the first day he entered FIBS, has too big an ego to apologize to anyone and is a general abuser.

His behaviour in FIBS tourneys is exactly what you  would expect and why he needs to be banned: there just isn't any upside to having an abuser in your tourneys.

I wish the participants in souptree's "SIEG HEIL - my apologies"  (great start by this TD) tournament good luck with the Dispute Resolution Comittee!

[NIHILIST]

Uhhhhhhhhh, which FIBS tourneys are you referring to, Baldy ? Since I don't play in them I'd be interested in having you cite specific examples of this alleged bad behavior.


NIHI

[Zorba]

On of your typical forms of abuse is to interfere with things you aren't even part of. Such as all sorts of FIBS tourneys.  You got a very well deserved ban for that.

There's hope for you though! Someone created a Dispute Resolution Committee so that even abusive players like you can enter tourneys.

I'm sure you'll love putting the committee to the test.

[vegas_vic]

NIHL i would be honored if you would take my place as captain on my team .

Players are slipshod and zyx .


Zorba i never thought i would say this but you are obsessed

talk about someone butting in

heck man i never see you play also , just come in and bash americans >

still love ya but you are wearing thin on me ,

NIHL i am serious please take my spot .

[NIHILIST]

Just as I tought, no examples to prove your statement. That's ok, you're still the most entertaining of the FIBS Eurotrash contingent, if not the most intelligent.


NIHI

[EddieVedd]

Well Soup you did it !

It's taken 9 months and whatever catalyst you care to cite but as always with apologies it is better late than never.

My first post in the "Ban BRB" thread suggested you try an apology but as recent as last week you questioned me in shouts as to "what would I be apologizing for?"  Here though you finally come through and admit to "poking the pigs in the box", "not nipping it in the bud" and it being an "over inflammatory" attack amongst other things.

As to being philosophical or racial......it is always how the offended party takes it and whether or not they are deserving. I have nothing to gain from all this grief but better treatment of fibsters on the whole. My involvement in this incident was motivated by a deep respect and gratitude towards tryout, who when we first began communicating on fibs, was helpful to me above and beyond the call. For me, either way it was "meant", he was never deserving of such treatment and clearly took it as anything but philosophical.

Your retraction of these statements is welcomed by me and in my books all you ever needed to do. In addition your stated regret and assurance that this will never happen again is encouraging reading. I congratulate you on finally stepping up to do so.

Good luck with the new league and having broached this impasse i too hope the 2 will become 1 sooner rather than later. This would clearly be the best result for the continued growth of Fibsleagammon.

Sincerely,

Eddie.

[tryout]

After quite some days offline I only now have time to answer the open questions in this thread.

Does this mean you don't accept the apology? I tried to make it clear it was meant sincerely, and it was.

I wasn't quite sure what I should make of your use of "would", especially in italics in your first post:

...I did respond back with "Sieg Heil," for which usage in particular I would like to specificaly apologize ...

This suggested to think "if what?", "when?". You also hid that passage rather well behind meters of text. But if it's meant as a sincere apology I'm the last not to accept it.


At least one thing of souptree's post still needs to be set straight:

I'm not casting any aspersion on tryout, but there have been a couple choices he's made which have affected season outcomes to his benefit, or to the detriment of teams with players he has personal issues with

As long as you only make general claims it is aspersion, isn't it? I expect you to stop this. Otherwise show me where my team or I took benefit or where I had "personal issues" with a player involved in a decision at that time. The "personal issues" only logically resulted from their behaviour after my decision. Also, the decision which your team made such a fuss about in last season could in no way at all have changed the final place for my team (nor yours).

As a side note, we should now and then remember what we're actually talking about and put it in appropriate relation. This is a tournament without entrance fee, money nor prizes. Of course results and decisions should be fair and that's what I've been pursueing. But what real benefit should there have been for manipulation anyway?

And what would have been the point of coming to you with a suggestion in a civilized manner when you can't even accept an apology from me for calling you a fascist?!

If you had carefully read my reply it should've been obvious that I didn't reject any apology. I stated my doubts about your seriousness. But anyway, see above.

You should note that there are a lot of people, me included, who are rather responsive to a civilised approach of things and are able to at least discuss different opinions. It should probably be provided that there was no affront in the first place.
You took immediately the contrary route. Even if you hadn't insulted me your cloning of the team league is a confrontation. You just admitted that you wanted to force a discussion about that committee on me. Well, this may be your way, but it's definitely not the polite one.

Finally, I have to say that such a committee may not be a bad thing if done right. But frankly I'm still not convinced of its necessity. Every tournament I know, online and IRL, is run by a TD who decides in case of disputes. Personally I'm not aware of any case where the TD didn't decide in an unbiased way. And in all cases her/his word is final. That's accepted standard. And of course a TD isn't infallible.
But then the committee members are neither. Furthermore, they are by your definition playing in that event and thus have a likely interest in a particular outcome. If you say they don't, then I neither have any as a participating TD. The likeliness that they are more biased than a playing TD is even higher since they come from more than one team.
So the only advantage I see is the distribution of responsibility.
A disadvantage, at least for me personally (maybe someone else doesn't care), depends on what that committee decides about. In particular I'd not be willing to host an event and thus offer my voluntary services to someone who e.g. insulted me previously. And if I choose to let them play, it's my own decision since it's my own work I'm putting in. I wouldn't want to rely on whether a committee happens to share my view.
Also, I'm far from sure that such a committee will indeed at least mostly come to a fair decision. This heavily depends on its members. Well, yes, they would be elected. But this doesn't guarantee that their decision is fair. Somehow the words politicians and populism come to my mind.

As for asking for a team to be banned, I've never asked for anyone to be banned from anything, and I don't even know what that references.

This wasn't directed at you but at unfounded accusations of others.

[tryout]

I have no idea whether dorbel's really believing what he's saying. But it needs to be set straight.

1. The incident with gogogiz and BushSucks: I had to decide whether it was justified to ban gogogiz for 2 months after he replied with "f*ck you" after having been quite a bit provoked by BushSucks. This was the request brought to me by Wallenstein as BushSuck's then team captain. That's all that Wallenstein was involved, apart from the endless whining after my decision. I won't go into details, but gogogiz apologized and with this I didn't think his behaviour considering the circumstances warranted the requested punishment.
That's it. Nothing else was brought to my attention and I neither witnessed anything myself. Only weeks later I remotely heard of mutual insults between Wallenstein and gogogiz. But just from one person, as a rumour, it had nothing to do with team league and even less with my far earlier decision.

2. The topic with Team-brb and NIHILIST has been beaten to death and I've made my opinion clear in another thread.

3. Now I've even "been outstandingly rude to me [dorbel] on several occasions". Lol. I really don't know what he's confusing or whatever. There's never come a single insult from my part. Well, talk about "I [dorbel] have no personal gripe against tryout". Sure!

[dorbel]

Tryout is either lying or he suffers from memory loss. He was informed of gogo's repeated flooding of Wallenstein and BushSucks with explicit nazi taunts, by me in a detailed e-mail the day after I first witnessed it. To get a long and detailed e-mail is not to "remotely" hear something "as a rumour". He took the view in his reply that it was nothing to do with him. Well it was nothing to do with me either, but I took the trouble to oppose it. Sadly, as his latest post makes all too clear, tryout doesn't consider nazi insults important when he isn't involved, or at least not important when he doesn't like the victims. What a disgraceful attitude. Should it really be necessary to remind a German of the Niemoller letter?
Tryout also cannot think of an occasion when he has been rude to me. Perhaps he should re-read his own letters as well!  

[diane]

How odd - you told him, I told him (and mentioned the insults hurled at myself when I challenged him) - so how comes he heard it from only one person??
With respect to the email response - I am not sure that tryout realises his somewhat direct manner can be read as rude.  

[tryout]

On searching for the mentioned mail I've indeed found it. After an endless hassle and back and forth of mails, mutual accusations from both parties involved and complaining and whining my memory obviously did turn selective and only remembered about the topic and not the exact mail. So I have to apologize for stating it incorrectly.

Nevertheless, nothing detailed has been brought to my attention and most of all long after I had met the decision. I've re-read Dorbel's mail by now and it may have been long, but the only detailed thing was the description of his point of view, not of any specific actions of anybody. The remote character of the news doesn't change just because he sent a mail. It was a general relation of what he heard that had happened. That's not remote? Moreover he even only spoke to one party and apparently didn't care to get an even view on the problem. On the other hand he claims to be a neutral 3rd party. Somehow that doesn't fit.

In his very same mail he also refers to a comment from me that Wallenstein said or shouted to gogogiz that "I wish the nazis had exterminated you". Dorbel simply dismissed this as retaliation.

Finally, what dorbel was mentioning in that mail was impossible to prove. I can't act out of thin air. He didn't provide a shout log if it happened in shouts. And if anything happened in "tells", well, what am I going to do if I only have mutual accusations? And there were not even copied lines from any "tells". Also interesting that not even the alleged victims gave any notice of such behaviour of gogogiz. (Btw, I'm not defending anybody; the accusations might also be true, but I don't know it.)

So without anything in my hands I'm supposed to take action? How? I'm interested in dorbel's explanation how this could be fair.

Constructing from this that my detestation of nazi expressions would be dependent of the persons involved is ludicrous!

And speaking of rudeness: I've browsed my mails to dorbel and can't see anything close to rude. In case a direct answer to a question is considered rude by him I can't help it.
However, he really should look in a mirror. His accusations and own statements towards me are spectacularly convoluted and unfounded and definitely rude (e.g. "What a disgraceful attitude.")!

Btw, Diane, I've ever insulted you??? When???

[Zorba]

I wish all Dispute Resolution Committees on FIBS good luck!

[snowflakes]

I've never met a bigger bunch of jagoffs.  No wonder Patti wants to close down the sh!t pit.

snowflakes