FIBS Board backgammon forum

Hi!

i submit you here a petiton about FIBS.
http://www.physik.fu-berlin.de/~lelli/campaign.html

Maybe some know already others don't , but, this is how it goes.
Some limitations to your freedom are applied if your connecting IP belongs to Italy.
For the ones who don't know the facts, the timeline and the actual state of things, this is a brief sketch (up to my knowledge):
THE FACTS: Italian based IP players aren't allowed to play against each other.

REASON: Some italian players (note: citizenship and not IP range related) abused in the past of the FIBS platform, cheating, harassing the FIBS maintainer, using multiple nicknames to raise their rating.

You can explore more and form your own ideas about it, reading the threads below:

"Stupid FIBS rule" http://www.fibsboard.com/index.php/topic,791.0.html

"Why are people so vindictive?" http://www.fibsboard.com/index.php/topic,810.html

The clear enlightening text written by Magowiz ("Preventing Italians to play each other") http://www.fibsboard.com/index.php/topic,920.0/all.html

Now, there are several obvious and less obvious reasons why all this should change at last.

In details, I (and i'm sure many other users do agree) believe in the ineffectualness of the employed technical measure, in the inequity of the prohibition, in the groundlessness of actual situation, from all civil and comportamental points of view, and last but not the least, in the hatefulness of an avalanche and subtle effect that this prohibition is causing. Italians are now seen as cheaters as a whole, as a population (depending on the IQ of your conversation partner. Try it out yourself in the public chat !!!).

I do also trust in the deeply liberal values of the FIBS mantainer, who will rely on them not to keep on  straightfowardly refusing our queries and dwelling his mind on the past.

If you wish to sustain this campaign, please, contact the maintainer (Patti Beadles), spread the text or link it in your webpage.

The purpose is just to make FIBS a better place to be in.

Thanks. 

This horse has already been ridden to death, and Patti has not been moved to change her mind as yet.     I really think no amount of talk, or petition, of which I saw none, will matter.     It is only a manner or harrassing Patti further which will certainly do no good.     I suggest you let it be.   

socksey



"If you can learn from hard knocks, you can also learn from soft touches." - Carolyn Kenmore

Hi all! I still do not understand the meaning of "you cannot play with users of your own site". A site, as everyone of us knows, is a site, not a Nation or a State. If Miss Patty dont think changing her opinion about ban a whole nation, I gently ask to change the message from *site* to the correct one *state*.
If Mrs. Patti still have problems with user/users with italian ip, she can send the logs to the italian postal police or to the abuse organization, which is worldwide, as everyone of us know.
Fibs is a nice place for me to spend my time, certainly different from yahoo or msn's backgammon. I thought that i was a free place, with normal and obviously rules where people from every part of the world can meet together. I still ask myself a thing: if in a tourney both of the finalists are italian, what should happen?  They, we cannot play against each other. Will win the third one? One of the italian finalists has to go abroad to play the game? 
As everyone cansee my score, i play for fun, not for being the best or the worst, this doesn't matter much to me, i would like only to play freely against everyone. I can use for instance proxy, in order to bypass this rule, but i'm not willing to use this solution, 'cause i don't have nothing to hide.
I'm sorry if I feel rude in my words, but I still cannot understand this solution that has been taken. I read that Patti still has problems with a user, maybe I'm wrong. But I don't think that if a person or two is idiot, a whole nation has to pay for him/them. Changing opinion is the best way to show everyone to be openminded and intelligent. Best Regards to everyone!

Ciao Neurino,
hai dimenticato il mio post precedente quello di Magowiz... lol (poco!)
ed una breve discussione su backgammon.it ed un paio sul forum Euit.
Roba vecchia..
Lascia perdere anche se.., puoi venire con noi nel nostro Team e ti levi la voglia di fare tornei individuali e per squadre: nazionali, europei e mondiali..(Tandem, ZCS, Q Series..) il nostro non e' un piccolo mondo

Traduzione= translation
Hi Neurino,
you forgot my thread, I posted it before Magowiz's one.... lol (not so much!)
and a short discussion on backgammon.it and 2/3 threads on Euit forum.
Is an old old story..
Take it easy even if.. you can enter our Team and you can play single events and team events: tourneys in our Country, European and World Wide too.. (Tandem, ZCS, Q Series..) our is not a little village

II parte domani = II part tomorrow

II parte: un'occasione perduta

Con la chiusura di Zone il Popolo del BG on line si e' trovato disorientato (tutti i tornei piu' importanti come Medallion e QSeries.., i Nostri tornei EU ed IT ed i giocatori piu' bravi erano li). Anche noi, come Team sia EU che IT, ci siamo messi a cercare "Casa". Discussioni sul forum e.. si va su Club Games, dove abbiamo una nostra room, ed anche su WGC.. tutti (EU_, PAL, Lions, BR_ etc..). Poi problemi di server e si deve scegliere un altro sito che si adatti alla nostre esigenze (partite libere, tornei mensili solo IT + EU sia individuali che a squadra + quelli mondiali).
Tanti nomi, anche Fibs ma.. no grazie! Non e' adatto a noi.
Abbiamo scelto Rengames, abbiamo le nostre rooms e dimenticavo.. siamo 800 circa in tutta Europa, facciamo li o su WGC (anche TMG o GS etc) le nostre partite. Se vuoi far parte del Team..
Lascia perdere non ne vale la pena.
Mi dispiace tanto, sono un "vecchio fibster".. ma l'occasione e' perduta.
Claudio

II part: lost occasion

When Zone closed the People of BG on line was confused (the most important Tourneys as Medallion, QSeries, etc.., Our EU_ and IT_ tourneys and the strongest players where there). We too, as Team EU_ and IT_ , were looking for a new "Home". Disciussions in the forum and.. we go on Club Games, where we have our own room, and on WGC too.. all (EU_, PAL, Lions, BR_ etc..). Than we get some problems with the server and we have to choose another site usefull for us (free matches, monthly tourrneys IT_Only or EU_Only for single player and teams + the world wide toruneys).
A lot of names, Fibs too but.. no thanks! Is not usefull for us.
We choosed Rengames, we have our own rooms and I forgot.. we are about 800 in all Europe and we play there or on WGC (TMG or GS etc..) our matches. If you want enter the Team..
Keep it off is insignificant.
I'm very very sorry, I'm an "old Fibster" ..but the occasion is lost.

Claudio

Quote from: socksey on March 13, 2007, 09:58:52 PM
This horse has already been ridden to death, and Patti has not been moved to change her mind as yet.     I really think no amount of talk, or petition, of which I saw none, will matter.     It is only a manner or harrassing Patti further which will certainly do no good.     I suggest you let it be.   

socksey

Hi socksey,
(1) have you ever asked Patti, why hasn't she moved yet?
(2) what is your personal opinion about? Your opinion about the specific points, i raise in the other thread?
(3) what if turns out that the majority of Fibsters, let's say at least 65% (i'm generous), believe that the ban should be at last removed?
(4) last but not least, in which way am i harrassing Patti? In which way people who sent her a mail explaining their beliefs, are harrassing her? Being administrator of a community, is a powerful and task full of responsability. Critics are a part of it. Arent' they welcome?

neurino

Quote from: claudio_first on March 18, 2007, 11:20:52 AM
II part: lost occasion

When Zone closed....[cut]...
....A lot of names, Fibs too but.. no thanks! Is not usefull for us.
...[cut]....
I'm very very sorry, I'm an "old Fibster" ..but the occasion is lost.

Claudio

Hi Claudio,
i saw your old posts, i digged deeply into the net trying to get the whole story of the ban against Italians. You, first generation of Fibsters came before me. It didn't work? Shame! Maybe we'll be luckier.
Everything changes, and, if we won't be successfull, at least something will be cristalline and evident for everybody:
perhaps Fibs isn't maintained the best way it could be. Perhaps Patti Beadles is unfit for this task and is taking over of Fibs as an impartial referee should never do. Thanks for redirecting me to other servers, by the way, i'll check them out.
Peace, stay tuned, and don't say "it's worthless", otherwise we better quit playing backgammon.



neurino

neurino.

Your questions (1), (2), (3), (4) were pretty well answered in the quote you gave from what I already said.  You're a newbie so you haven't been around to hear all that has gone on before.  When someone has been given an answer and yet continues to rag on the same thing, that amounts to harrassment.  Patti has been keeping Fibs going for YEARS out of the goodness of her heart and her love of backgammon. 

Doesn't matter what I personally think or what anyone thinks.  We don't run Fibs.  We don't own the site.  We are only participants.  It's too bad that a lot of good people must suffer for the mischevous antics of a few, but that's the way it is.

No, critics are not welcome.  The site is not financed by us.  We are just free riders.  It is not our place to criticise.  If you don't like the way Fibs is run, then start your own backgammon site and go in peace.

socksey



We give dogs time we can spare, space we can spare and love we can spare. And in return, dogs give us their all. It's the best deal man has ever made. -M. Acklam

Quote from: socksey on March 19, 2007, 10:42:57 AM
Your questions (1), (2), (3), (4) were pretty well answered in the quote you gave from what I already said.  You're a newbie so you haven't been around to hear all that has gone on before.  When someone has been given an answer and yet continues to rag on the same thing, that amounts to harrassment.  Patti has been keeping Fibs going for YEARS out of the goodness of her heart and her love of backgammon. 

Doesn't matter what I personally think or what anyone thinks.  We don't run Fibs.  We don't own the site.  We are only participants.  It's too bad that a lot of good people must suffer for the mischevous antics of a few, but that's the way it is.

No, critics are not welcome.  The site is not financed by us.  We are just free riders.  It is not our place to criticise.  If you don't like the way Fibs is run, then start your own backgammon site and go in peace.

socksey

socksey.

In my country some rights are "natural", because embedded in the "human being" sphere, not in "paying-a-fee human being" sphere. So do some responsabilities. I am logical here. I am a logical man, whereas being passionate and rageous doesn't bring any improvement. Therefore in my 4 years, or more, don't even remember, of Fibs (newbie?  ), i waited and i informed myself on the topic. And i formed my opinion.

Moreover, instead of making it personal, as you are doing with me, would be nice to cohoperate in making Fibs a better place for everybody to be in. This means practically, to find other technical solutions (yes! there are practicable roads but, somehow, they are ignored).

I know that many people got acquainted to this status-quo, only because their rights-sphere wasn't limited. Well, i want those people to think about it.
You don't want to think about it, but, at least, be tolerant and remember Voltaire: "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." Aren't you willing to agree with this quote?

Listen carefully, now: i perfectly know why you "ban-supporting" people are so aggressive with me and Italians. Because they are precisely pointing out who is the real abuser.

In the end Fibs isn't a cold server to switch on and off. Fibs is the community that brings life and make BG so colourful and amusing.

neurino

QuoteYou don't want to think about it, but, at least, be tolerant and remember Voltaire: "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." Aren't you willing to agree with this quote?

Listen carefully, now: i perfectly know why you "ban-supporting" people are so aggressive with me and Italians. Because they are precisely pointing out who is the real abuser.

I very much agree with Voltaire's quote.     Otherwise, I would delete your message here.     You listen carefully.     What I have said to you is as I know it.  I do not disagree with you.  I have never said that.  What I am saying is that Patti is administrator of Fibs.  She has threatened to close Fibs down more than once because of this kind of behavior and worse.     Continue this and we may not have a Fibs for anyone.      This is my concern.     I love Fibs.     It's my home away from home.  I would be devistated if Fibs were gone for any reason.     If you have been a Fibs member for four years, you should know all this.     Maybe you missed some of the conversations that have gone on about this subject.   At any rate, it's as I said before,

QuoteThis horse has been ridden to death

.

I am sympathetic to your cause, but your cause is a dead issue.   

socksey

Quote from: socksey on March 20, 2007, 06:36:51 AM
I very much agree with Voltaire's quote.     Otherwise, I would delete your message here.     You listen carefully.     What I have said to you is as I know it.  I do not disagree with you.  I have never said that.  What I am saying is that Patti is administrator of Fibs.  She has threatened to close Fibs down more than once because of this kind of behavior and worse.     Continue this and we may not have a Fibs for anyone.      This is my concern.     I love Fibs.     It's my home away from home.  I would be devistated if Fibs were gone for any reason.     If you have been a Fibs member for four years, you should know all this.     Maybe you missed some of the conversations that have gone on about this subject.   At any rate, it's as I said before, .

I am sympathetic to your cause, but your cause is a dead issue.   

socksey

Good, socksey!

First of all, I do really appreciate your words. At least, you - as global moderator - disclose your mind about it. It's very important. You are sympthetic with the cause. Thanks.

Second. I won't feel neither responsible, nor guilty if in the future Fibs will close. This is not my (our) purpose. I repeat since the beginning: we want just some reasonable anwers, not silence or threats of being expelled from Fibs. And, sockey, sorry, but there are plenty of reasons against the ban. Fibs is for you home at abroad as well for us italians. The shutdown of Fibs cannot be offloaded onto ours queries. None of us is threatening the system. We, indeed, contribute to it, with money (Italians do donate as well) and with the presence. At the contrary, both the ban and the future shutdown, if it will happen, are a unilateral, one-sided decision.

Third: i raised reasonable points about the ban. Technically and about the essence of the abuse. No answers.

Look at Claudio_first's words: there are people nomading from one server to another, all but Fibs, just because they aren't welcome . It's really sad, and maybe is time to solve this "Italian Diaspora" We, as simple participants, don't have so much power, but the step toward a reconciliation has to be done by the Fibs "gotha" as well.

Is it so terrible, so terrific, so scary, to ask the people: "What do you think about the ban?", "How can Fibs overall improve?", "Who wants to contribute in a open source Fibs code?" (a last second idea), "Let's open a second Fibs server, in order to lower the bitload of the original one" (a last last second idea). A saboteur would never speak like I do now. These are practical ideas of somebody that looks at the future in a constructive way.

My impression is that, now, the horse-ridden-to-death involves more pride and prejudice than other reasons. And the stubborn wall we face confirms it.

My text isn't a Petition in the proper sense, because i wanted to see first the lie of the land, to taste Fibs community's pulse. It's a kind of unofficial survey. The feedback that I and other italian users are getting is encouraging. The "silents" don't dare to come out into the open, because they fear to get banned. It's weird !!!

On the other hand, i guess a proper poll within Fibs context could reveal interesting opinions.

I'm looking forward to hear opinions from other moderators, contributors, from A. 'marvin' Schneider, from Fibsters whose words are reputable, compared with italian's ones.

Cheers.

neurino

Just from speaking to Patti and listening to what she has to say, here is my take on the issue:

Fact:  Patti runs the FIBS server at her own expense for her own entertainment.
Fact:  Fibs is not a democracy, it is a dictatorship, and Patti is the dictatress.
Fact:  Patti makes, enforces, ignores, changes any rules that are in place at her discretion.
Fact:  Patti reservers the right, as we all do, to squash anything that causes greif or displeasure in her life.
Fact:  Patti gets to decide what those things are and how to effect changes to remedy them.
Fact:  Patti does not owe any fibster anything, including the continuing operation of FIBS.
Fact:  Fibsters, at the very least, owe Patti the consideration of not being a pain in her ass.
Fact:  If Fibsters become a sufficient burdon, Patti would be justified in shutting the server down.

Now, with those facts in place, the situation at hand is simple.  There have been a group of people who have conspired to cause Patti greif.  It happens that the only common actionable factor amongst them is that they are Italian.  So, Patti did what she had to do to restore the pleasureable aspect of the RUNNING of the FIBS server; ban inter-Italian play.  She chose to do this even though just banning all Italians from the server would almost certainly have been MUCH easier.  (a single firewall rule)

Patti has laid out the condition under which this ban will be removed;  the cease of these few Italian's being a pain in her ass for the period of one year.  I believe Patti when she says that she will lift the ban under those circumstances.  Your blame for this issue should lie with your countrymen, not with Patti.

Being a further and continuing pain in her ass will not likely further your cause.  In fact, the next logical step might be to ban Italians from the server all together, or worse shut the server down for everyone.  I think we can all agree that either of those would be a real tragedy. 

Another fibster suggested that you spend your time educating your fellow Italians to quit their subversive behaviour, whatever that is.  I believe that would be the quickest route to a resolution you will be happy with.

gb

Thanks for your kind and polite reply.
May be you fotget a thing: many ''droppers'', and many are more than one.., have an USA IP (or from another country..). What Patti will do? Ban all the Americans?? Or all from another coutry??

Think about it.. if you are able to do it.

Best Regards

Claudio

GB is not saying that you are right or wrong in your conclusions, he is saying that it just doesn't really matter if you are right or wrong. Patti does whatever she sees fit and that is the end of it.

To be honest, if i where the admin of Fibs i would let people from Italy play eachother again, on probation so to speak.

Quote from: claudio_first on March 21, 2007, 06:45:51 PM
Thanks for your kind and polite reply.
May be you fotget a thing: many ''droppers'', and many are more than one.., have an USA IP (or from another country..). What Patti will do? Ban all the Americans?? Or all from another coutry??

Think about it.. if you are able to do it.

Best Regards

Claudio

Personally, I'm of the opinion that the Italian situation is unjust and ridiculous.  I personally think the ban should be lifted.  (I base this opinion on the limited knowledge I have of Patti's reasons for imposing the ban.)  BUT I realize and recognise that this is not MY choice to make.  We are all guests in Patti's house.  Patti gets to decide which behaviour is tolerable and which behaviour is not.  Patti gets to decide who stays at her party and who gets bounced.  Her decision does not have to be fair.  It is her decision to make.

Patti has apparently decided that droppers are either OK with her, or impossible/impractical to defeat.  She has further decided that whatever the few naughty Italians have done to bring this ban on their entire country is NOT OK with her.  Administering FIBS is not Patti's full time job, and it is apparent that she does not want it to be.  Banning droppers would be a full time job at Fibs.

When people visit MY house, I make the rules.  When I am a visitor in someone elses house, I abide by their rules, regardless of whether I personally think they are fair or not.  If I find the house rules unfair I have the freedom to leave.   Do I think its fair that all Italians are suffering because of the actions of a few?  No, of course not.  But I respect Patti's decision and her authority to make it.

gb

Just use a foreign proxy server if you're from Italy and your problems should be solved.

That's the way some American rating cheaters operate on FIBS for years (hello Biggles_two and Honeygirl_ll) and it never seems to have bothered Patti!

Here's two links to get you started:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tor_(anonymity_network)
http://tor.eff.org/

--
luck is my main skill

omg get a life boys and gals

Hi Runner,
may be I missunderstood the first Gammboy's reply 'cause English is not my first language, I try to pay attention when I write and I read but perhaps sometime is not enough.

For my little own opinion is more important the "lost occasion".. you know which kind of tourneys, I was speaking about, we are accustomed to play.

Claudio

Quote from: gammboy on March 21, 2007, 07:12:33 PM
Personally, I'm of the opinion that the Italian situation is unjust and ridiculous.  I personally think the ban should be lifted.  (I base this opinion on the limited knowledge I have of Patti's reasons for imposing the ban.)  BUT I realize and recognise that this is not MY choice to make.  We are all guests in Patti's house.  Patti gets to decide which behaviour is tolerable and which behaviour is not.  Patti gets to decide who stays at her party and who gets bounced.  Her decision does not have to be fair.  It is her decision to make.

Patti has apparently decided that droppers are either OK with her, or impossible/impractical to defeat.  She has further decided that whatever the few naughty Italians have done to bring this ban on their entire country is NOT OK with her.  Administering FIBS is not Patti's full time job, and it is apparent that she does not want it to be.  Banning droppers would be a full time job at Fibs.

We are not talking about droppers. For them the Reputiation-bot works quite well, imho. We are speaking about abusers, who fake nicknames and try to connect anyway to Fibs for intra-Italy play. If Italians need a different treatment, i'd like to know on which basis this treatment is based. It's not enough to say "they are all cheaters". It cannot be true. There are other cheaters around the world. It's not enough to say "i decide on my own". On which basis this decision is taken?

Everybody is responsible for his own actions. If it wasn't like that, then we wouldn't need to interact with others. Patti can isolate her, without answering, or saying that "it's her house", but she doesn't get charisma at all.

Zorba pointed out a way of avoiding the ban. If you were a player in Italy, would you try to play through a chain of proxies?
And if you were the Fibs administrator, would you ban some other players?

neurino

Quote from: Zorba on March 21, 2007, 10:22:32 PM
Just use a foreign proxy server if you're from Italy and your problems should be solved.

That's the way some American rating cheaters operate on FIBS for years (hello Biggles_two and Honeygirl_ll) and it never seems to have bothered Patti!

Here's two links to get you started:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tor_(anonymity_network)
http://tor.eff.org/

Thanks Zorba for your advises...but, let me ask you a couple of things:
(1) if this isn't the kind of abuse the italians are committing, what could it be?
(2) if this is the abuse the Italians are charged of, don't you think they shouldn't avoid the Tor network?

neurino