Community or snakepit?

[socksey]

I agree with you, Diane, and have also met people from other sites who reacted the same way.  They just didn't bother to come back.  I like your proposed posting better than Patti's.  At least it is an honest approach.  I wonder if Patti reads this?  

socksey



"The secret of staying young is to live honestly, eat slowly, and lie about  
your age." - Lucille Ball

[jinnate]

Perhaps this statement ought to be removed - 'Racist and abusive players will not be tolerated. ........In serious cases you should report the player to Patti, warnings will be given and repeat offenders will be banned. ' - since there is little truth in it!!

In fact - an appropriate warning that NO form of censorship applies - and that players of a sensitive nature may wish to disable shouts would be more applicable.

i concur with changing that notice. it's obviously untrue that racist and abusive players aren't tolerated.

i think having that posted leads many to think any behavior is acceptable because stated rules aren't being enforced. and that particular rule being such an important thing at other sites, and in other areas of our life, to have that not being enforced here, sort of ... well it reminds me of don knotts as a frontier sheriff. he can make all the laws he wants about no spitting on the sidewalk, but who is going to pay attention to him when he tries to enforce that law?

rather than have a rule that is clearly not the reality, i think it would serve fibsters more to have the reality clearly stated upfront. even if patti won't change the message when you log onto fibs, we can easily change the faq/newbie info so that newbies aren't totally overwhelmed when they first log on.

wait a sec! i'm reading this really for the first time. what does patti connote as a "serious case"? i'm remembering that most forum posters have expressed that they haven't bothered to notify patti (because of a perceived? opinion that she found this acceptable).

socksey, could you expand more on your back-n-forth with patti regarding banning players and behavior?

[happynoodlegirl]

So I haven't been around for a while. I stopped in last night and was told to check out this board. I love bg(I also live in a rural community where no even knows what bg is) and I've made a few friends on FIBS but here's what I have to say about this string:

When I shout I find that almost no one ever answers me. While the "kindergaten gang" goes on and on and on with loads of people either chatting with them or accosting them. That leads me to believe no one really wants clean decent chat on FIBS. There's the people that enjoy the vile and the people that enjoy condemning it. If you really want change... what's that old phrase? "It comes from the inside" you are not going to change anyone else. Ignore them and move on and give us all something to talk about or keep whining and make me laugh some more.

My god! What a bunch of pathetic, sissy, whiny bunch of posts these are. It's like that girl scout "camping" trip I took when I was 13. The other girls didn't want to sit on the gound because they'd get dirty and the troop leader's idea of a Saturday outing was going in to town to find the mall. I've never read such pansy comments.Censorship is not the answer folks. If you don't like what someone has to say don't listen to them. Howard Stern has high ratings because sadly it's what the majority of people want to watch the same goes for movies with vulgar language, sex and violence. Television does not form society, society forms television. If people quit watching all the crap they like to complain about the show's ratings would drop and eventually it would quit being made. People still watch it though. Then they complain forever about it. Maybe they just like complaining. It's the same damn thing with FIBS. Stop complaining and act.  Stop reading what they say and stop reacting to it. Eventually, hopefully, they'll go away and find somewhere else where they can be total not a nice persons and get all the attention their mommies never gave them as children.

Sadly though there are people out there who enjoy reading their vile. Just like the people that enjoy listening to Howard Stern and enjoyed seeing the Passion of The Christ. IMHO it is not my place or yours to force my opnions on others. Because I don't like to see the words make love to and pussy used every other word does not give me the right to forbid it for everyone. Gag and ignore the people you don't like. ######ing and moaning about it does nothing but make more people ###### and moan then we all suffer.

You see as a Libertarian just about my number one belief in life is people's individual rights. I may not approve of what you think or say and  you may not approve of what I think or say but it's beautiful that we each have the right to think and speak. I don't have to listen to you if I don't want to and you don't have to listen to me.

If you don't like what someone has to say the stop listening to them. If you whine and persist in telling the how "wrong" and "offensive" they are it's not like they are just going to give in and say oh yeah I guess you're right I'll stop now.

[socksey]

hey hng!  long time no see, and nice to see you are still with us!  ))

i agree a lot with hng about freedoms (freedom of speech being high on the list), and am a liberal at heart, also.  problem is as i stated elsewhere on here, gag is not an option in shouts for most.  we either get it all or nothing.  the entrance posting should be changed to be truthful, so that newbies don't suffer shock syndrome when entering.  i think it should also include a warning for minors and/or minors parents that fibs is not a desirable atmosphere for children.  i have learned to deal with the negative shouts by toggling shouts off when they are too disturbing for me.  being an imperfect specimen, i still get pulled in occasionally, but i am happy to say, that is becoming less frequent.  

as far as elaborating on patti's policies, jinnate, i don't have time for a book on individual cases!  i see no benefit from elaborating on the individuals involved, anyway.  it has just been my experience and considerable observation that patti will say, "use gag" unless the person was stupid enough to have words with her, personally.  hey, patti works for free.  it's her right.  enough said.  considering the amount of daily verbal abuse that goes on in fibs, the banning has been minute, to say the least.

socksey




"I base my fashion taste on what doesn't itch." - Gilda Radner

[happynoodlegirl]

I agree the opening statement is rather ridiculous but it makes me laugh everytime I see it! I couldn't care less what it says. If you're telling me you think it should be changed so precious children don't read things they shouldn't then we'd have to get in a much larger scale conversation than FIBS alone. In my opinion that's poor parenting. The best example I can use is at the cafe I used to have an 11 year old kid that came in everyday after school and hung out for hours. He spent almost all day on the weekends and one entire summer he spent at my cafe. You know, his mother NEVER EVEN ONCE came in here to check the place out and make sure it was appropriate for her kid to be at? Now I run a nice, safe coffee shop but how the hell was she to know that? For all she knew he could be shooting up dope in the back room or surfing porn on my computers. That is her responsibility as a mother not mine as a cafe owner. I use loads of foul language and I'm sure I've given that kid plenty of ideas his conservative Catholic mother would never approve of but she woudln't know because she's never come in to talk to me.

Hello! It's the internet! All the sick make love tos of the world love the internet! They have an endless supply of people to listen to them, people to take advantage of and people to argue with. Everyone knows this and if they don't they are going to learn fast when they enter their first chat room. If a child gets caught up in the middle of it then yes...poor kid.... but that's poor supervision on the parent's behalf not Patti's for having FIBS. Giving a child free unsupervised access to the internet you may as well set them loose in the Playboy mansion. I refuse to have someone tell me that I can't do or say what I want because a child might be watching. Either the parents care enough to check out the things their precious children are doing or they don't. Anyway I worked I've worked with junior high kids and I've never seen anything worse on FIBS than I hear them say everyday.

In closing, I never believe signs on doors or posts on the internet. Bars have signs that say no one under 21 allowed and we all know that's a joke. It doesn't matter what the sign says, you're never going to know what's really inside until going in to find out. If a parent allows their child to run amuck they have no right to complain when the kid comes home one day and has learned the word make love to.

[happynoodlegirl]

Just one more thing then I think I'll quit on this string:

MY GOD! I SAID I'M A LIBERTARIAN NOT A LIBERAL!!!

Scary thought that is.

see you guys on fibs.


hng

[socksey]

hng, I beg to differ with you.  Serving minors is not a joke.  In California, at least, , if a bartender is caught selling alcholic beverages to a minor, a heavy fine is imposed, as well as a heavy fine for the establishment, and the doors to the establishment can be closed.  When you lose your livelyhood, it becomes a very serious matter.  Of course there are exceptions to the laws, but there will always be the criminal element.   We must do the best we can in whatever circumstance we find ourselves to combat the lawless.

In the case of children beyond the management of their parents, I think it is every responsible adults duty to guide, protect, and care for those children in their vicinity, in the absence of a parent.  It is unrealistic to think that a parent can be in control of their children at all times.  It is humanly and physically impossible for a parent to keep tabs on their child at all times and/or even most of the time.

You're right, of course.  The internet is here and children can't be kept off.  That doesn't mean we have to close our eyes and allow whatever to go on under our noses.

Call me nuts, but I will be doing what I can when I can to protect the innocent.

The Fibs welcoming post is dishonest.  Why post a lie?  That's all I'm saying.

socksey



"A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a life spent doing nothing." - George Bernard Shaw

[webrunner]

I'd have to agree with sox here.
Although i understand your point about parenting hng, it still leaves us with the responsibility of adulthood. We should know better and protect the weaker ones on our society.. or at least the children. Even if they are not our own.

But hey.. that's only my opinion..

<_<  

[alef]

As a school teacher I'm surrounded by kids all day long, and I'd say the language on FIBS is fairly representatitive of how my pupils chat to each other! It might be more a British thing, or even inner city London, but children will now swear very casually. For example, correcting a 13 year-old's work last week he just said "sh**" when I marked an answer wrong -- nobody flinched. I'll only reprimand children when their language is directly towards someone else in a hateful way. But regardless of this, I do find it tiresome and unpleasant reading the shouts sometimes that's why I've gagged most of the usual suspects.

What I suspect doesn't get heard about much and is really disgusting is the sleazy preying on women. Try creating a new username which is obviously female and then shout something naive sounding, see how quickly some of the sickest characters then try to invite you to a match... wonder why cyan left?

[webrunner]

I agree with your remarks about female players Alef, but i think even your pupils won't make incestious remarks etc.
Sometimes the things that are said are far beyond the level of "sh**".

I don't even want to think about someone that will confess to be a homosexual on fibs.. he will be burned to the ground i think.

:angry:  

[diane]

I am aware how the kids talk - also worked in a school - and whilst the majority of us are trying to teach them alternatives - and how to communicate effectively, it seems an uphill struggle sometimes. My own son has grown up amidst some very colourful language - but has an absoulute sense of when to use them - and when not to!  I have no objections to words - and use whichever is appropriate in the moment - and this is the example that should be set.  I do however, object to words being used as weapons (albeit it doesnt upset me in the least - so any and all personal attacks are a complete waste of time)
Noodles - you say you run a nice clean cafe.  Why is that?  Is it because that is a place more people will want to come to and spend their money - perhaps?  And if you had the kind of clientele we have here - you would start losing money hand over fist??
I dont need to gag anyone here - as i said - no 'words' will offend me - and i can imagine the sad individual behind those words - anyone craving attention in the way they do is deeply troubled. So there is no 'hurt' factor for me . In any of it (that is a side effect of my superiority complex   ).  But that is not the point - people logging in for the first time see that - and are not helped - but taken advantage of.  You often cant work gag as you start to use a client for the first time - and all that is pouring at you - while you try to get to grips with working the darn things.  It is very offputting - and the nice folk often leave quickly - whilst those who thrive on that join us - hang around being a further pain in the rear - it becomes a self perpetuating cycle.  
And furthermore - to reinforce Sockseys point - one day you wil be a mom - and you will be the kind of mom who lets her child go freely into the world without you holding their hand the whole time.  At that point - do you want the rest of society to completely ignore your child - and pass the buck back to you - or to help be your eyes and ears when you are not there?  Children are the resposibility of the whole society - not just the parents - if we let em run riot - and blame the parents - we will have to face the consequences of that as they become adult.  Anyway - as you say - that is a whole other topic.
The internet is a wonderful and powerful tool/toy, and i get very fed up with the constant scaremongering in the news about how bad it is - and how it should be policed etc - but then if a simple backgammon site can be this bad - i find it disheartening - since it just adds ammunition to those who would try to shut it down/control it!

[jinnate]

the "protect the children" agrument has always seemed a week one to me. whenever it's used, it's always felt like someone was trying to control another's behavior indirectly, instead of just saying "your behavior affects me this way" and letting that stand on it's own.

it's like saying "you should be good because santa claus is coming". or it's always felt that way to me.

[socksey]

I was pondering over jinnate's post all last night.  I didn't quite understand her logic and couldn't figure out what Santa had to do with anything we have been discussing here.  Then this morning, I received an email from one of my sisters.  This might put things in a little more perspective for you, jinnate, or whoever.
                                               
                                           *************

There once was a little boy who had a bad temper. His Father gave him a bag of nails and told him that every time he lost his temper, he must hammer a nail into the back of the fence. The first day the boy had driven 37 nails into the fence.

Over the next few weeks, as he learned to control his anger, the number of nails hammered daily gradually dwindled down. He discovered it was easier to hold his temper than to drive those nails into the fence.  

Finally the day came when the boy didn't lose his temper at all. He told his father
about it and the father suggested that the boy now pull out one nail for each day that he was able to hold his temper.

The days passed and the young boy was finally able to tell his father that all the nails were gone. The father took his son by the hand and led him to the fence. He said, "You have done well, my son, but look at the holes in the fence. The fence will never be the same. When you say things in anger, they leave a scar just like this one. You can put a knife in a man and draw it out. It won't matter how many times you say I'm sorry, the wound is still there. "

A verbal wound is as bad as a physical one.

                                              **********

socksey

[jinnate]

it's the assumption that surely i must not curse because the children could be harmed. as if the person making the argument "well, what about the children?" had values i must surely agree with concerning children. i feel the person saying that to me is attempting to manipulate me.

i don't have those values. i don't hold that children are harmed by hearing curse words. nor do i hold that anyone using curse words in front of children must be a monster or an irresponsible adult.

if someone decides not to feed their child meat, that's on them. if the child comes to my house and wants meat, i might give them meat. the parents' values are theirs, not mine.

[jinnate]

i just checked out a 95-post thread at rgb and boy are my mouse hand tired!

it was all about don and his 6-month ban. 95 posts.

anyway, i came away thinking that people seemed upset with patti because she seemed to be supporting the kg and kgb. and i'm wondering if this isn't true now - that people perceive patti as being friends with the kg and therefore unwilling/unmotivated to do anything about kgb.  

[burper]

I recommend people use the gag command more, and it's helpful to others to shout that you're doing so. This is one of the worst punishments as mostly these people are trolling, desperate for attention and reactions. I once had snowflakes leaving me abusive messages for a while because I'd gagged him, clearly if he was that bothered by it then I must have done something right!

Also, if someone is particularly abusive and/or racist then I think it is worth copying the text and sending it to pattib@fibs.com. Especially if she hears from a few people she might act on it -- people do get banned from FIBS sometimes.

I agree with the gag comments alef, but Biggles brought up a good point in shouts today:

If Patti feels that FIBS is creating too much troublein her life, she might just shut it down. I don't know for sure that she is in a situation where she could do that, but she certainly can choose to stop administering it. If she did, would marvin and/or kit bother to find it another home? I don't know, but it certainly would be a roll of the dice to find out.

So, I would disagree that it is worth troubling her if one feels offended. You *might* get her attention if it fits the legal description of a crime, but I don't know if her attention is neccesarily a good thing. She might just do the quickest and easiest thing.

[alef]

FIBS bullies will use whatever tactics they can to convince others of keeping the status quo.

No one can speak for Patti except Patti. But, for whatever it's worth, my impression of her is that she is actually very devoted to keeping it running.

When there's been severe lag or the whole thing has gone down then she's moved quickly to sort it out, check in the rec.games.backgammon archives. She might ignore our emails and leave the motd out of date but when FIBS isn't working she shows she cares.

[burper]

No one can speak for Patti except Patti.

Right, and the times I've chatted with her, she has indicated that there isn't anything she can do if it doesn't meet the legal definition of some kind of abuse or harassment. She has also indicated that she hates to get gobs of email about stuff she cannot control.

[jinnate]

anyway, i came away thinking that people seemed upset with patti because she seemed to be supporting the kg and kgb. and i'm wondering if this isn't true now - that people perceive patti as being friends with the kg and therefore unwilling/unmotivated to do anything about kgb.

biggles came roaring at me on fibs about this, and i thought maybe he was overreacting, but re-reading this i can see why he got the wrong impression. so let me put this another way:

more than once in the thread, players mentioned that don was being held to a standard not applied to nihi, honeygirl and a couple of other nicks i've already forgotten. i thought "hey, so these players felt like don's behavior was being singled out and patti's friends are getting away with the same type of stuff, or, at the very least, not being held to the same standard don is being held to". specifically, people mentioned that hg could have simply employed the gag feature that patti kept advocating don use.

and then i thought "you know, i think at the bottom of all that going on at fibsboard, or at least a very large part of what's being said and not said, is that some players perceive that patti is not enforcing good behavior, standardized bans, etc, because the majority of the transgressors happen to be her friends or people she's on good terms with."

[jinnate]

also, dug this up out of the fibs' help ('help erase'). this is probably something that ought to go into newbie information, along with the some introduction to fibs culture:

NAME
erase - How and why accounts are erased
DESCRIPTION
I'm very sorry that this is necessary, but I can't wait any longer: There have been problems with users of the backgammon server complaining about other players.  Complaints were about cheating and about insulting other users.  It's not possible for me to verify if those incidents did really happen, because I'm not logged in all the time, because people tend to behave well as soon as I'm logged in and because listening to all players involved (which I tried) uses up a lot of the time I can use for maintaining and improving the server.  Therefore I have asked a couple of players to report those incidents.  Those players are users of this server for several months and I know that I can rely on what they tell me.  If those players keep telling me that someone is misusing the server I will erase the account in question without discussing about it.  I know this may not always be the ideal way to solve the problems, but I don't see any other way to deal with them.
REMARKS
Don't complain if it happens to you - it's not my decision.  No, I won't tell who the players are whom I asked to keep their eyes open.  I won't answer the insulting emails I'll get. I won't listen to complaints about other players by other players than the ones I asked to complain.