Community or snakepit?

[JonJon]

Well, I'd like to speak on behalf of all the 12 year olds that are supposed corrupted here. How else can we learn what mommy and daddy are up to when they're out and leave us in front of the computer for hours on end? I get tired of the endless beastiality sites and want to talk to someone my own age. It's kinda like staying up late and seeing what the grownups at the party are talking about, only without stealing bottles of booze from behind the bar. When I grow up I wanna be like Uncle Nihi!

Thats just fricking genius...

BTW, is spelled B-E-S-T-I-A-L-I-T-Y and I believe the phrase you were looking for is 'supposedly corrupted'

And well...I could point out errors in logic in your paragraph, but I'll spare you the trouble...

JJ

[klic]

At least we know that Biggles knows of this thread, and obviously even reads (parts of) it. Short of insulting webrunner he mentioned it.
Yesterday, he was so helpful to a newbie that (s)he logged off cursing. Guess this one won't come back. (Whether it's a loss or not one cannot tell, but still, it's against the principles of any community thing, be it Fibs or something else!)
I just read parts of it afterwards, as I wasn't at the terminal when it was happening, but that boring stuff brought me to perma-gag those people. It's just not worth it (Hi Biggles, yes, that's my oppinion)

Klaus

[jinnate]

i've been typing up comments, organizing them, and i hear the following

1.   how do we make fibs fun for everyone?
2.   how the hell does he have a good rep?
3.   how do we make fibs safe for children?
4.   how do we keep fibs from being depressing?
5.   how do we make others responsible and responsive to the community?
6.   how do we use gag/blind effectively?
7.   how do we go from defense to offense?
8.   how do we protect ourselves as TD's?
9.   how do we keep our response less personal?
10.   how do we protect ourselves without punishing ourselves?
11.   how do we change the perception that kgb is acceptable?
12.   how do we come together collectively to combat this?
13.   how do we change the culture of fibs?
14.   how do we kick people out?
15.   how do we get patti to hear us?
16.   how do we keep our focus on the positive instead of the negative?
17.   how do we decide, as a community, whose behavior warrants action/consequences?
18.   how does others' behavior make us feel?
19.   how do i feel safe to share myself with others in an environment where verbal abuse runs rampant?
20.   how do we police fairly?
21.   how do we keep consequences less personal and less punitive, yet effective?
22.   how do we get the kg to see us and treat us as people?

and i've been thinking that maybe if you're busy getting ratings, every player is an object to be used and less of a person to engage, and it's easier to flame an object than a person.

[alef]

Below is a long posting I made on this topic on r.g.b over a year ago. Reading it again reminds me of how far RepBot has come, it's now pretty much accepted by everyone, but it took a long time for large numbers of people to stop moaning about it.

Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Date: 2002-11-24 04:06:01 PST

Zorba <zorba@chello.nl> wrote:
>> Freedom is great, but Bob NIHILIST Ebbeler is taking away other
>> people's freedom to play backgammon on FIBS in a friendly, non-racist
>> atmosphere.

> Oh bullshit.  I'm no fan of Bob's, but "toggle silent" is your friend.
>
> -Patti

Just because Zorba is fed up with one particular bully you're recommending
he "toggle silent" (turn off shouts/public chat) and cut himself off from
everyone else? Surely the most appropriate command here is simply "gag
[user]".

What I find most remarkable about FIBS is that despite its many years of
neglect and anarchy (in the negative sense) there remains a hardcore group
of shouters who are extremely friendly, fun and a pleasure to listen to. For
every sad dropper or bully mentioned here on r.g.b there are at least ten
others who have kept many of us from giving up on the public chats over the
years. A few names that spring to mind are cyan, mookie, socksey, Dutchie,
jasonj, webrunner, DDEEBBZZ, stacy, Tygger, MacMom...

I'm very much hoping that Andreas will either return to help improve things,
or better yet find another individual or small group he can trust to bring
new energy and enthusiasm to FIBS development.

Let me present one idea of how RepBot could provide a better service if
integrated: offer players the option to sign into filters.

"repbotfilter 0"
This would leave things just as they are now. An ideal setting for those who
love listening to absolutely anyone and who hate RepBot.

"repbotfilter 1"
This would add a gag/blind to only those who achieve the most extreme of
negative reputations, those who usually end up banned by Patti.

"repbotfilter 2"
A medium screen set at a threshold to not hear or play those who've achieved
a fairly bad rep.

"repbotfilter 3"
An option for the truly thin skinned who still want to keep the shouts on
but don't mind missing out on those who engage in, say, controversial
political debate or bad taste humour and have achieved a mildly negative
reputation.

Perhaps a further option would be setting these filters to create just gags
or blinds or both. The most controversial aspect of this system would be
choosing the default setting for new players. I'd argue for "repbotfilter 1"
since extreme droppers often prey on those with low experience.

With such options in place to automatically ignore others I would personally
want to see a complete end to all bannings. Instead I'd expect that those
deserving of a ban would simply get ignored to the point of giving up and
leaving on their own.

I'm not claiming this is a perfect system by any means, but I think
something like this would be a drastic step forward for FIBS. Constructive
criticisms are always appreciated!

By the way, I recently posted that RepBot would be adjusted to not allow
bots to votes. RepBot's current owner and programmer has decided against
this, arguing that RepBot is working fine as it is. I certainly acknowledge
that distinguishing between bots and players is a problem, and also the
attempted attack on me and others just forced more players to be aware of
RepBot. So thank you, otaku!

-Alef

Link: full thread

[socksey]

as of today, i have again globally banned vqs on tourneybot.  he entered my tournament today.  i forfeited his scheduled match.  as per his agreement with kari_grandi, he would be globally banned if he entered another of my tourneys or otherwise degraded me in any way.  somehow, i knew this would happen.  

i have never had an apology from him for his obnoxious behavior toward me in the first tourney he played of mine as well as in hours of shouts.  i was willing to allow him another chance for an apology.  he refused.  i am willing to lift the ban in one month, that will be 16 April 04, if there are no further insults to me, AND if there is a formal apology from him to me.  

if any tourney directors do not agree with me, you have the power to lift the global ban for your own tourneys.  please be so kind as to replace the global ban when your tourney is over, however, so that i don't have to reban or otherwise put up with a hassle every time i run a tourney.

thx...........socksey  

[klic]

Reading sockseys post and regarding the list made by jinnate, I think there's no chance to make it generally a "better" place (as was already stated, that's not an universal thing, this is something everybody defines differently). But what is definitely necessary (IMHO) is some kind of defense. Those kg members are insulting people who are sacrificing their time organizing tourneys, webpages or programming and refining bots. This is something that should not go without answer. Well, if you would get some real amount of money, ok, then there would be some kind of recompensation and it would at least be open to discussion whether one has to accept that behavior or not. But in this case, it's just your free time (generously given) and we (i.e. for example me, who enjoys joining the tourneys and the mostly good atmosphere I had up to now, otherwise being a total newbie here on fibs) should be able to do something against it. If this is anything we can do, then fine, ban them from the tourneys. Not much, but at least something. Perhaps the time will come when they just can play themselves, because anybody else just refuses them. Probably then they will learn how boring they are.
And one thing I absolutely cannot understand is, why join a toruney and whine about the rules. I missed some tourneys because I thought my time at that moment was to limited, so I couldn't be there for long enough in the unlikely event I reach some later round... The TD creates the tourney, the TD makes the rules. That's it.

Klaus

[webrunner]

I am pleased about all the discussion going on here. This is exactly what i had hoped for.

Don understands what i am trying to do here.
I am proving that people like Biggles_Two and zyx don't have what it takes to have a mature discussion, where answers are based on intellect instead of fast wit.

I have heard that Biggles brought this thread up twice in less than half an hour, all by himself. This means two things:
1. he read it, but didn't post as Don pointed out already
2. It probably has him thinking, otherwise he wouldn't have brought it up.

Burper, i still disagree with your passive and defensive attitude regarding this subject. I still think that offense is the best defense and i know for a fact that this discussion is already paying off.

As for changing the community, i think we are all doing that already by posting here, raising our voice, where before everyone kept their mouth shut but thought the same things.

A note for Biggles: If you read this, you are here for at least the second time.
Please register and enter the discussion if you have the guts instead of calling me a whiner behind my back.

For your information: it is not censored here, only foul words are filtered and replaced by acceptable replacements. It should be a challenge for you to say your say without using swear words.

[webrunner]

I just have a long talk with zyxtcba and i would like to point out that it is not him personally i'm after, although it maybe looked like that in my first post.

And for the record: I am not out to get anyone banned from FIBS!!!

I just want to make the shouting environment less hostile because i think (and this thread kind of proves that) there are a lot of people that are getting fed up with all the profanities.

[socksey]

I agree with you wholeheartedly, webrunner!

The profanity, explicit sexual content, and flaming in shout brings to mind as Steve Martin so aptly put it to a heckler during one of his stand-up comedy performances, "Yeah, I remember when I had MY first beer!"

socksey

[Guetz]

10 months ago I found FIBS and it was a dream answer to a perinneal challenge.... living in a rural area where backgammon is known only as those stupid markings on the back of a checker board (most don't even know what it is called) and endulging a passion for backgammon was a hit and miss proposition.  

Logging in the first time, I was instantly amused, having read the log on admonition:  

"This server is on the net to meet people from all countries.  All sorts of racists and fascists are not allowed to login here!  Rude language will not be tolerated on this server. Be nice."

Almost immediately I noticed profane, racist, sexist, whatever-ist shouts in the chat room area of my FIBS interface, an amusing counterpoint to the admonition and a telling one.  Obviously the rules on behavior were not taken too seriously or enforced ("...will not be tolerated..." apparently had no teeth).

But, being fairly thick skinned, I ignored shouts and instead enjoyed the experience of playing backgammon with excellent players on a good interface with what feels like a good dice roller (I had unsubscribed at Netgammon after repeated incidents of players hacking the dice roller and some obvious cheats by the Netgammon bot program (entire player rolls ignored in favor of the bot)) and you just can't beat the price for all of this fun and connection to like minded backgammon enthusiasts world wide.

My first impression of the shouts was a reminiscence of the 70's CB radio craze, where the air waves were dominated by immature blatherings, flirtations and obscenities, all made possible by the relative anonimity of the media and lack of teeth in the regulations that were supposed to be in force.  In general, the FIBSters who spewed such pathetically immature rhetoric were acting like the kids of the 70's, giggling while they imposed their obscene little passions or hates upon an audience that lacked any means of control.  Well meaning individuals who tried to moderate the blatherings in the shouts simply found themselves the next targets of childish, low class rants and insults.  At least with CB's, well meaning individuals with amped up radios could squelch poor beahvior into oblivion.  Too bad it doesn't work that way in a chat room or in shouts.

In reading the above posts there is an essential common theme:  we really don't like or appreciate the nature of communications of some individuals, they step over the bounds of normal social propriety and courtesy, but what are we to do but throw up our hands in despair, gag-and-blind ourselves or send futile complaints to Patti.  But this is a problem that has been addressed in other internet chat vehicles where concern for the general enjoyment of the users is a paramount priority of the service.  That fix is moderators or monitors, select individuals, recognized by the service for their integrity and fairness, empowered to warn and subsenquently suspend from the service those individuals who just don't get it... that the general usership doesn't appreciate the profane, obscene, racist, xenophobic drivel that spews out of their mush for brains.  Yeah, others of the kindergarten mindset might cackle in appreciation, but the majority just find it boring, repetitive and distracting to the overall experience in inverse proportion to their ability to ignore it.  So... empowered monitors is one possible solution (since Patti chooses for her own reasons not to play this role except in the most egregious of cases).

Another possibility, this one inspired by RepBot, would be to have some minor parsing of reputation into not only the overall rep currently available, but one with more than one category.  Such categories which might include sportsmanship and FIBS courtesy.  Of course such a categorization of rep would be of limited utility as evidenced by the way that chronic droppers seem to be unaffected by repeated shouts regarding their irritating predisposition towards loss avoidance.  But it would provide an outlet for those frustrated by the few (found in every population) that just can't seem to control their baser impulses to spew their prejudices or profanities.  At least then we could be amused by the quantitative measurement of their shameful behavior.

Another possibility, this one inspired by a remark by Diane above, would be a degradation of rating for numerous and repetitive complaints of inappropriate behavior.  Just like in some online backgammon venues where ratings decay for lack of play, offended users could contribute to a decay in the rating of an offensive user through modulated repetitve complaints.  The more offensive the user, the more people offended generating more complaints at an increasing frequency resulting in a increasing rate of decay of the rating of the offending player.  Perhaps this could be tied to a courtesy rating in reputation, but that is the pervue of those with the admirable skill and ability to create programs that enable functions for the rest of us.

These are just thoughts.  Overall.... If we were all in the same room, those that in the FIBS environment who feel free to flount their profanities and prejudices with impunity, would find themselves the object of extreme and eventually physical counter prejudices.  I agree with the individuals above... shout behavior should take into consideration the children and youth that also are users or observers.  The kindergarten gang would think twice, in person, acting the way that they do in front of children knowing that they might be facing an irrate parent and other onlookers.  I know for myself, if my children were forced to suffer the repeated blathering of such individuals in a real-time situation, which continued despite warning the offender, said offender might soon be nursing black eyes and other such symptoms of parental displeasure.

To the offenders, who when told to improve their behavior complain that they are having their rights for freedom of expression trampled on, I would hope that your level of intelligence and imagination would enable you to find ways to express yourself fully and completely without having to resort to the profane and obscene.  You might then find yourself taken a bit more seriously.  The rules of polite company, in real-time situations, should apply to this most excellent FIBS community, improving the experience for all and enabling greater discourse.

Okay... my soap box is put away.  I won't say (for their sake... my comments and errors are my own) which respected member of the FIBS community enjoined me to contribute to this discussion, but I fully support those that have come together in the effort to make this a better place for all.  And I would like to express my heartfelt thanks to those with the skill and dedication who have created FIBS, its various bots, attributes and interfaces.  Thank you for your altruistic efforts and the countless hours you have applied toward making FIBS a truly great place to endulge a passion for backgammon!  Without you, we wouldn't be having so much fun!  And also, thank you to those individuals who contribute as tourney directors, sacrificing your game playing time to put together fun events for the rest of us.  

[purol]

... just a few words from a newbie ...


Good job Webrunner started this discussion. I cannot say how much I hate these shouts with a discriminatory undertone.

Once or twice I was provoked to participate in a discussion I didn't want to be in. That was a big mistake! I learnt some new words but the faul language didn't stop, ofcourse.

Tempty or not, don't bite. Not taking the bait will spoil half of their fun.

I won't be making that mistake again.


-- Purol

[don]

The answer is obvious, and is staring you folks in the face.  If you are presented with a gang of bullies, you need a bigger gang of reasonable people.

What the group of excremental fools shout is magnified by the fact that they gang up on one person at a time.  Barring some intervention from Patti (unlikely) they will continue to monopolize shouts until they are overpowered.  What is needed is a group, note that a group is a collection of more than one, to take them on.

Or, the group could just whine about shouts far far away from FIBS, like on FIBSboard.com.

I would suggest that, as a group, protests are made often for boring English and inconsistency (lies) in shouts, via shout.  I would suggest that, if a group of people objected to, say, obscenity or lies in shout, then they support any individual in the group who, with decent language and reasonable credibility, takes on the kiddies of FIBS.

Get noisy on FIBS!  Recapture shouts!  Or do your lemming act here.

--
don

[Feklhr]

My goodness, I guess this was the topic to get folks posting and reading this board! Time for my $.02...I think webrunner may have found an answer to this problem in his latest post. If you actually have a conversation with most folks, you'll find that they are real people and can connect on some level. Yes, there are those on whom even I have given up, but they are few and far between.

I see ongoing battles between folks (Don/NIHI, Biggles/Zorba, etc) that could be stopped by just ignoring the abuser. I think these guys actually like the fight. It is said that one can't get your goat if they don't know where it's tied. These guys bring the silly goat out and put it on display.

If you are upset about the shouts, it's your problem, not the fault of the shouter. These are just words and most are taken out of context or just tossed out to get a reaction. If you don't want to be a part of it, ignore it. If you don't like FIBS, leave. If you can't stand the heat...

Censorship is just another way to be a bully.

[lewscannon]

burper's last posting in which i get my shouts quoted makes me sound like a dangerous psychotic with delusions of grandeur. And to think i wasted all of that money on therapy and drugs! where do i get a refund?

[grillbill]

Reading this, slightly after midnight on a friday night where another argument has just kicked off on FIBS, I must say I agree with webrunner and would like to reassert what has already been said about not wanting him to leave. I also miss cyan a great deal as she was always a delight to chat to on FIBS and hopefully she will return some time when she has gathered the requisite emotional reserves needed to put up with some the going on on FIBS.
 In the end, this is the case. For me it sometimes becomes a chore to go onto FIBS and listen to the tripe being spewed. I haven't witnessed the kind of language and goings on noted here, but I have often watched the arguments flying. In the end I feel that the type of random arguments that occur are to be expected, even though they may all find root in one topic. What IS completely unacceptable is foul language etc. It doesn't bother me personally, and really it just serves to point out a severe lack of vocabulary on the part of some reprobates. I have found some great people to talk to on FIBS and have found a certain path that I follow. Sadly, the atmosphere in the shouts sometimes ecourages me to partake of the arguments. (I would like to apologise now if I have ever offended anyone, as this is unintentional and I do avoid bad language). The kindergarten group are easy to ignore and I find them innoffensive enough, once their behaviour upsets TDs and any children are affected I think something should be done. What one can do is a moot point however.
   On a side note I find it amusing to find NIHI here. You have been a feature of FIBS from the very first time I logged on. A semi-deity if you will (which I'm sure you would like to agree with). Saying Zorba abuses FIBS is completely erroneous, however, so don't start. He may say a great deal in shouts but at least he has the common decency to do it in a manner that does not lower the tone.
  Other than that, a great site and one that is keeping me from much university work.  
   Will.

[klic]

Ok, this thread teetered out a bit, after everybody lost his steam... Still, I'm a bit unsatisfied, but mostly as I for myself did not find an answer except for just ignoring the kg. It's right that some ideas tend in the general direction of *horror* *shudder* censoring shouts, but then, there definitely is a point where you have to draw the line, or isn't? But then, like in many different areas, you just can't cope with people who, in a sense, are just a destructive bunch of people, feeling themselves great and overwhelming having just caused an outrage. So, I'm at the be beginning of my answer, and one round more clueless than before, I don't know what to do.

Then, on the other hand, just trying to be very selectively, you find very nice and funny people to play with, which leads me to think that there are just two universes on FIBS, the kg, and the rest of us (positively identified as the "sane crowd"

Cheers,
Klaus

[jinnate]

the official fibs ruinator would hate to see this lose steam, as so many people seem to be affected by it. then again, maybe i just like to start fires.

while it seemed like a lot of fibsters had different ideas on what was offensive to them, i think everybody (well, everybody who posted) agreed they didn't like foul language being used in the shouts, they wanted newbies to actually receive some assistance with their queries, they didn't like sexual references.

i think i'm beginning to grasp that more than anything, it's the tone and the spirit in which all of the above are done that is heart of the problem. that's just a gut feeling, which i can't quantify.

[klic]

Yes. I think the most important thing here is that newbies aren't just treated bad so they log off and never return. It's a bad attitude to feel better just because one is  longer on fibs as the other and just kicks somebody around for some question. Not very educated...

Sure, that faul language thing is more gut feeling, as with so many people from so different regions (and different mastering of a language what  for many is just  a second/third/... language) you have to expect differing reactions. Still, even though I don't think those sexual remarks "shocking" I think they are extremly boring, always the same old stuff (see all those spam emails) and - at least to that extent - not something you'd expect from adult people (sure, some joke is ok, but always recurring to the same story, no)

Klaus

[alef]

klicÃ,  Posted: Mar 24 2004, 10:25 AM
Yes. I think the most important thing here is that newbies aren't just treated bad so they log off and never return...

It might not make an enormous difference but one of the things we can easily change is the website material written for newbies. Please constructively criticize and suggest changes:
http://www.fibs.com/guide.html

Also, work was started on a large FAQ some time ago. It borrows heavily from www.dailygammon.com and needs lots of rewriting and links. If anyone would like to pick this up and develop it, please do! Or even just work on part of it?
http://homepage.mac.com/alefrosenbaum/fibs...jects/help.html

Since this is hopefully more than just Chit Chat I've copied this into a new thread...
http://www.fibsboard.com/index.php?act=ST&f=3&t=230

[diane]

I had never read the advice to new players carefully - until you asked if it could be improved - sorry couldnt help but ROFL as they say, at - 'If you're unsure of anything then try asking in the public chat/shouts. There are often many Fibsters who are happy to help out new players.'
It seems that at times - that could be the worst possible course of action!!  If it was decided to include a list of playernames to contact directly in there - I would be happy for mine to be included.

Perhaps this statement ought to be removed - 'Racist and abusive players will not be tolerated. ........In serious cases you should report the player to Patti, warnings will be given and repeat offenders will be banned. ' - since there is little truth in it!!

In fact - an appropriate warning that NO form of censorship applies - and that players of a sensitive nature may wish to disable shouts would be more applicable.

I am not trying to sound negative - but these are exactly the issues faced by a newbie logging in for both the first - and subsequent few times - and without a warning - and accompanying statement to 'hang in there' - cos there are also many wonderful characters here - we lose many of the very people we would wish to see more of.  I have met players on other sites who have visited here - and been put off immediately, and they never really raise the enthusiasm to try again.