FIBS Board backgammon forum

Team League

Author Topic: Team League  (Read 13191 times)

Offline Tomawaky

  • Fibsboarder ++
  • ****
  • Posts: 891
    • FibsLeaGammon
Team League
« on: March 02, 2009, 12:14:28 PM »
Make your choice to decide what to do for the next session.
Tomawaky "I feel good da da da da da da da.........i knew that i would now........."

FIBS Board backgammon forum

Team League
« on: March 02, 2009, 12:14:28 PM »

Offline adrian

  • Fibsboard Executive VIP Donor 09/10
  • Fibsboarder plus
  • *
  • Posts: 273
Re: Team League
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2009, 05:15:40 PM »
Those who subscribed for FTL knew exactly what was ahead and how many matches they should play in 2 months.
For each un-played match between two teams, I suggest there is a penalty of 0.11 points, for BOTH teams. In the event of a forfeit, the winner should NOT care to confirm it - should be confirmed automatically. For a forfeit, teams shouldn't receive the 0.11 points penalty, and of course, the forfeited match shall count ONLY as a half win against the opponent of the other team, this way there won't be ties between two teams because of this new rule,  in the current format 3x3 of FTL.
Helping people is tricky. Give help to anyone and he will remember it only when he is in need again.

FIBS Board backgammon forum

Re: Team League
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2009, 05:15:40 PM »

Offline sixty_something

  • Pops
  • Moderator
  • Fibsboarder ++
  • *
  • Posts: 910
  • facts? mere enemies of truth
    • Shiva Nataraja
Re: Team League
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2009, 06:05:15 PM »
i rather like that idea, adrian, but one decimal place with no rounding would be enough wouldn't it?

additionally, i'm not sure it is really any different in the end result from a the simpler total W-L standings i have suggested in my approximation of TL Standing at FLG TL Standings which i haven't have time to update since Feb-2

i am sure awarding 2 points for a team win could yield different FINAL results and different still with your suggestion, but the simplicity and day to day currency of just using an actual W-L total for each team's individual matches may actually be a better solution still .. further, the GB number (Games Behind) really becomes a meaningful reflection of how the race actually stands .. GB is somewhat funky to calculate or define here, but it works regardless of how many games, i.e. individual matches, are played by any two teams (see the Wiki article Games Behind for a more technical explanation)

unfortunately, forfeits are always going to be a problem, but, IMHO, the almost meaningless totals in the standings, still uncertain now even at season end due to potential post-season forfeits, is a problem from day one of any season .. thus, i think a meaningful standings from day one which the much simpler total W-L and GB provides may be a solution worth reconsidering

so, i'm removing my vote for awarding after 5 team wins in favor of just total W-L or Other
A little inaccuracy sometimes saves tons of explanation. -- Unknown
e-mail me

Offline Tom

  • Fibsboard Executive VIP Donor 2015
  • Fibsboarder ++
  • *
  • Posts: 522
Re: Team League
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2009, 06:46:08 PM »
One point to remember that if people do like 5 points to decide win/lose, if you play all 9 matches you may get more TIE points for any tie breakers

FIBS Board backgammon forum

Re: Team League
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2009, 06:46:08 PM »

Offline Tomawaky

  • Fibsboarder ++
  • ****
  • Posts: 891
    • FibsLeaGammon
Re: Team League
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2009, 07:54:59 PM »
One point to remember that if people do like 5 points to decide win/lose, if you play all 9 matches you may get more TIE points for any tie breakers

If 5 pts the TIE would not be used because meaningless
Tomawaky "I feel good da da da da da da da.........i knew that i would now........."

Offline Tomawaky

  • Fibsboarder ++
  • ****
  • Posts: 891
    • FibsLeaGammon
Re: Team League
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2009, 06:17:21 PM »
Here is a discussion from fibs and I need your opinion on it or better ..... great ideas ;-)

Tomawaky: hello
Tomawaky: wich one ?
Mort: the only one l sent you
Mort: sent it yesterday
Mort: at tomawky gmail address
Tomawaky: if not answered ther a chance a did not received
Mort: you haven't looked yet?
Mort: it's regarding forfeits
Tomawaky: oh it's in my spam
Mort: ok
Mort: would 'fibs' in the subject line avoided that?
Tomawaky: normally not !
Mort: ok
Tomawaky: I do not understand why it got there
Mort: let me know if you have any questions after reading it
Mort: or comments
Tomawaky: can you resume simple please :-)
Tomawaky: then I will read
Mort: resume?
Tomawaky: oups
Tomawaky: how many forfeit do you ask .?
Mort: 7
Mort: from 5 players
Mort: it's all in the email
Tomawaky: I think it would not possible
Tomawaky: but I need to think about what must I do for the incomplete matches
Mort: you need to read the email first
Tomawaky: yes but even if you were online on the 28 there is no reason I give you for this forfeit !
Mort: and your reason for NOT?
Tomawaky: They were maybe often connecte in january and not you
Tomawaky: I can consider only end of vebruary
Tomawaky: I can't consider only end of vebruary
Tomawaky: February
Mort: then you open yourself to all kinds of discussion and interpretation
Mort: which you have done already by not having clear cut rules
Tomawaky: right
Tomawaky: but the win can be give to the last players onnected
Tomawaky: but the win can be give to the last players connected
Mort: that should be considered
Tomawaky: certainly not
Mort: l said considered, not written in stone
Tomawaky: What is most possible is to give points to all match that have more than 5 one side
Tomawaky: 5 win
Mort: you have set yourself up for a lot of problems
Mort: that's not even the beginning
Mort: there's lot's of matches that don't have a 5pt win
Tomawaky: I tried to make it and maybe do some error
Tomawaky: this is our first try
Tomawaky: then I will consider to go on or not
Tomawaky: the rule is clear
Tomawaky: only finished match will count
Mort: the rule is NOT clear
Tomawaky: so I can stop the result now
Tomawaky: butit is not satisfied myself
Mort: according to your 'rule', there can be manipulation by not playing matches
Tomawaky: what is sure is that if it make me too much work and too much probelm I will give up
Mort: seems that's where it's headed
Tomawaky: and I don't see many try to make planing match by email
Mort: write it in your rules
Tomawaky: too much people don't care
Mort: l don't visit fibsboard at all
Tomawaky: So I can also delete all team with not enough matches played
Mort: you need to post such things on your website
Tomawaky: This was A first try and I will post our discusion at fibsboard
Tomawaky: then I wait opinion from all and for the moment I can see a clear rule to be applied
Tomawaky: are you agree that I post this discussion to FibsBoard
Mort: indeed. there will be discussions
Mort: mainly because rules need to be very clear from the start
Tomawaky: sure but give me rules taht I can write down
Tomawaky: and what is most important for me is that it must be the most automatic as it can
Mort: you'll probably see workable solutions in your posts
Mort: yes, simple and to the point
Tomawaky: Automatic where TD do not have to take decision but just folow the rules.
Mort: yes
Tomawaky: For the moment I can't see any any complete solution
Mort: but rules need to be as foolproff as can be
Tomawaky: and when I said automatic it's also for posting, confirming and make the ranking automatic etc ..
Mort: you'll still need to make rulings on this session
Tomawaky: I have no time to argue for each complain and believe me with clear rules as there is at the Lindividual league. I have already some to do.
Tomawaky: even more than some, sometimes ;-)
Mort: sure
Mort: seems you'll have to decide something soon though. as we still do have playoffs to do
Tomawaky: I can do it for individual but make it twice will be difficult and I prefer to stop than doing 2 tourneys which are not perfect
Tomawaky: I will post this and I need some help and good imagination
Mort: ok
Tomawaky: for me the actual ranking is one we can take
Mort: l don't call that fair at all
Tomawaky: I would prefer to add all of the match where 5 pts for a sidehave been earned
Tomawaky: doing much is difficult
Tomawaky: I can't forec players to lpay their games
Mort: why should our team lose by manipulation by other teams?
Tomawaky: I am not here for tahat
Tomawaky: I am not here for that
Mort: no you can't, that's why you need more strict rules
Tomawaky: your're right but manipulation will always be possible except if we cosider to play all the matches for all
Mort: get suggestions on making it 'manipulation' proff
Mort: proof
Tomawaky: I post this to fibsboard expecting some good ideas
Mort: and it's probably noe possible to have all matches played
Mort: yes
Tomawaky: All is possible, what we need as you said is rules to define this
Mort: yup
Tomawaky "I feel good da da da da da da da.........i knew that i would now........."

Offline Tomawaky

  • Fibsboarder ++
  • ****
  • Posts: 891
    • FibsLeaGammon
Re: Team League
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2009, 06:47:41 AM »
One night and I can't see better option than given the victory to all the team that have reach the 5 Pts.
It have been done.

No there is still all of theses match to complete :

DGteam   RuthlessWarriors   Beaver   4   3
NoName   TheGammonators   Beaver   1   3
TeamTruffles   TheGammonators   Beaver   3   4
OttomansEmpire   schigstogsedat   Crawford   2   2
RuthlessWarriors   TheGammonators   Beaver   3   4
DieDreiMusketiere   TheCubeSluts   Jacoby   4   4
NoName   TeamTruffles   Beaver   1   1
TheMisfits   WhupAssWorldwide   Crawford   0   1
NoName   TrailofPips   Beaver   0   1
OttomansEmpire   TheFrenchies   Crawford   4   4
RuthlessWarriors   TeamTruffles   Beaver   4   3
FullPrimeTime   TrailofPips   Beaver   1   0

what must I do there ?

We can see that all of ths team have :
TheGammonators   3   incomplete matches
RuthlessWarriors   3   incomplete matches
NoName   3   incomplete matches
TeamTruffles   3   incomplete matches
OttomansEmpire   2   incomplete matches
TrailofPips   2   incomplete matches
DGteam   1   incomplete matches
DieDreiMusketiere   1   incomplete matches
FullPrimeTime   1   incomplete matches
TheMisfits   1   incomplete matches
TheCubeSluts   1   incomplete matches
WhupAssWorldwide   1   incomplete matches
TheFrenchies   1   incomplete matches
schigstogsedat   1   incomplete matches

Must I give a lost to all team with 3 uncompete match first then 2 ?
Tomawaky "I feel good da da da da da da da.........i knew that i would now........."

Offline adrian

  • Fibsboard Executive VIP Donor 09/10
  • Fibsboarder plus
  • *
  • Posts: 273
Re: Team League
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2009, 03:59:47 PM »
Tomawaky, just please don't quit on us. I know it is hard to make a decision about the unplayed matches in this first FTLG session. It is obvious there is no  fair solution for all. Do as you feel, some will be hurt, some will  quit playing FTL, some will give you hard time , some will swear, but most of us will stay with you no matter what you decide. They all forgot that it was their choice to join, it was their choice to abide to the rules (as flawed as they may be ). Instead of moaning or complaining, every nuthead should say a big THANK YOU and try to help in finding solutions for the next session. Please come up with new and improved rules for the next session, rules that will make your work easier. Donzaemon has done a nice work regarding automated Fibs-o-nacci tourneys, everything is governed by some strong and detailed rules there.
Helping people is tricky. Give help to anyone and he will remember it only when he is in need again.

FIBS Board backgammon forum

Re: Team League
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2009, 03:59:47 PM »

Offline sixty_something

  • Pops
  • Moderator
  • Fibsboarder ++
  • *
  • Posts: 910
  • facts? mere enemies of truth
    • Shiva Nataraja
Re: Team League
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2009, 04:31:20 PM »
what must I do there ?

Tomawaky, it appears you have updated the standings at the FLG TL website by backing out previously awarded forfeits, but the totals don't appear to be in sync with the results or even your post below .. for example, for our team, the WonderJammers, at the end of the season we had only one incomplete team match with NoName with the previous result posted as 6-1 .. now, it is posted as 3-1, yet it appears we received the full 2 points for the win

additionally, our team match with TrailofPips now reads 4-2, but at the end of the season it had been posted as completed as 7-2 after you had awarded a forfeit to me and Zorba in our matches against the missing Jack_Shit

BTW, jdg actually played all his matches including ones against Jack_Shit and Derby early in the season .. he played and won both matches, as i recall and he confirmed, but they have disappeared from the team results

finally, if forfeits were awarded against Jack_Shit and Derby to me and Zorba and as requested by email in our last unplayed matches against babyjim, our team record in PF/PA would be 37/26 (8-1 vs NoName and 7-2 vs TrailofPips .. it currently reads 35/26 which is, i think, the correct total on the last day of the season reflecting our two unplayed matches against babyjim, but it is not the same as the totals at the website

hopefully, this is just a momentary glitch .. while i like the results, as it appears the WonderJammers have won the wild card race, i'd like it better if i could understand how .. IMO, legitimate forfeits should be included in your totals and listed here or elsewhere for all to see .. for now, what was confusing has become very confusing .. good luck with getting it straightened out

regarding, the issue of when to award two points for a team win, since it is clear that the majority prefer awarding it at 5, i have no problem in implementing that rule change for this season as well as next, especially if it makes it easier for you .. regardless, i'd sure like to see the FINAL STANDINGS posted, ASAP .. like adrian, i really appreciate the difficulty of your situation .. i hope my detailed comments above are helpful .. they are not intended as criticism at all .. i trust you 110%, Tomawaky, to make a fair decision for all involved and give you a big THANK YOU for all your work at re-birthing TL at FIBS
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 06:15:26 PM by sixty_something »
A little inaccuracy sometimes saves tons of explanation. -- Unknown
e-mail me

Offline Tomawaky

  • Fibsboarder ++
  • ****
  • Posts: 891
    • FibsLeaGammon
Re: Team League
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2009, 09:46:51 PM »
Thanks for the feedback.

The problem was in the bottom table that is valid only for the current session. As I make by the side 3 players. Some results were missed. I corrected but the table at the bottom wold not be correct for past session as soon as Team will change.
Tomawaky "I feel good da da da da da da da.........i knew that i would now........."

Offline Tomawaky

  • Fibsboarder ++
  • ****
  • Posts: 891
    • FibsLeaGammon
Re: Team League
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2009, 10:40:39 PM »
Here is my decision

For the matches which was not finished I take the actual score to give the win except if equality.

In case of equality : if a team has played more matches than another I give the win to the team who have finished more match by giving one more point to the team.
Then I gave one more point to the team who have play more points...

You can check now the final standings
Tomawaky "I feel good da da da da da da da.........i knew that i would now........."

Offline PersianLord

  • Genes, memes and nothing else
  • Fibsboarder ++
  • ****
  • Posts: 585
  • A brave arm makes a short sword long.
Re: Team League
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2009, 11:13:35 PM »
Well, even though I really appreciate Tomawaky's efforts to manage a fun league for all of us, I don't think that the current decision regarding the unfinished matches is fair and justifiable.

In the "Team League Rules" page, we read that:

A team wins its match-up with another team when it has won five or more times out of the 9 matches played, but it is important to play all the matches for tiebreaker and the final result will not be declared until results have been posted for all 9 matches.

http://fibsleagammon.free.fr/TEAMRules.htm

So when you've decided to award 2 pts for any team that have won over 5 matches in it's unfinshed matches, or even more ridiculously to any leading team, that means you have violated your own rules.

Regarding my own team, Ruthlesswarriors, we tried our best to complete our matches against DGTeam and TheGammonators. We had 2 unfinished matches with KDP of DGTeam and 2 with MJTAMV of TheGammonators and both seemed to dodge us on February 28th, which was the last day of the first TL session. I think magic_one can testify this claim, at least for KDP's case. We're trailing 3-4 against both of these teams. So we basically need to win both of our remaining matches against every of the above mentioned teams: a tall order, but reasonably possible. And don't forget that if we manage to beat just one of those teams, especially DGTeam, the whole standings will change and we'll have decent chances to top the division. So I reallt don't think it's fair to award points to the leading teams whose members didn't behave in a fair manner by ducking their matches against us. Again think about it Frank. Just imagine in the next TL session (if that's going to happen at all), it would be a huge incentive for some unfair players to stop playing their matches with a team that is trailing against them, knowing they will get the whole pts in the end. Surely, it will be a bloody mess.

My suggestion is very simple: specify a 2-days deadline (for example: March 10th and 11th) as the last opportunity for the players who have unfinished matches to play their matches, via official FLG e-mails and in which time you yourself, or any of the trusted FLG veterans, like dorbel, slipshod, Kari_Grandi, sixty_something, etc are able to supervise the scene. If, hopefully, the players play theit matches, then you'll have managed a clean and fair TL session. And if, by the testimony of your supervisers, one part of the deal refuse to finish their matches, then award wins for those players who were present at the specified time.

I think this is a fair, yet easy and simple, solution for the current problem.

Again, I would like to appreciate for the time and energy you put for this project.

Regards -- PL


The leftist's feelings of inferiority run so deep that he cannot tolerate any classification of some things as successful or superior and other things as failed or inferior. This also underlies the rejection by many leftists of the concept of mental illness and of the utility of IQ tests.  - T.K

FIBS Board backgammon forum

Re: Team League
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2009, 11:13:35 PM »

Offline Tomawaky

  • Fibsboarder ++
  • ****
  • Posts: 891
    • FibsLeaGammon
Re: Team League
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2009, 11:28:49 PM »
If majority is ok with it here is the play-off

First Semi-Final
ShouldIStayShouldIGo vs the winner between FullPrimeTime - DieDreiMusketiere

Second Semi_Final
DGteam - ShakeRattle&Roll
Tomawaky "I feel good da da da da da da da.........i knew that i would now........."

Offline dorbel

  • Advanced Fibsboarder
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,150
Re: Team League
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2009, 07:31:57 PM »
I'm good with this effort by Franck to resolve the session. I realise that those teams who were unable to finish their program, often through no fault of their own, are going to feel aggrieved, but this is an honest attempt to deal with the problem. Next seasons rules will, I am sure, be tighter and better framed.
Let's remember, matches that weren't played are not the fault of the TD!

Offline stog

  • Administrator
  • Advanced Fibsboarder
  • *
  • Posts: 1,850
  • don't roll your dice in the sand
Re: Team League
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2009, 07:38:00 PM »
yep mr claude i concur completely...... thx mr wacky :)

liontamer metaphor!

« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 09:47:54 AM by stog »

Offline stog

  • Administrator
  • Advanced Fibsboarder
  • *
  • Posts: 1,850
  • don't roll your dice in the sand
Re: Team League
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2009, 09:48:57 AM »
i asked some others to do the polls but was met with "if you could explain to some less intelligent brain like me the difference among the options in the poll, i'd vote..."

i agreed and suggested they read some of the discussions - see recent topics/posts mid front page......they could then confuse themselves even further :)

but as there is a genuine  attempt at producing better rules for the next season -- i asked they suggest something for the mix - problem is ...of course what --

 i suspect a league system as in solo FLG where those who want to finish all games will attempt to, and, if good enough, will gravitate to a better division where all games are finished and rewarded - no penalties required. This is what we already have really...with patience...thx wacky

Register at Fibsboard and let us know your opinion please!!
« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 02:44:33 PM by stog »

FIBS Board backgammon forum

Re: Team League
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2009, 09:48:57 AM »

Offline Tomawaky

  • Fibsboarder ++
  • ****
  • Posts: 891
    • FibsLeaGammon
Re: Team League
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2009, 09:50:02 AM »
Tomawaky "I feel good da da da da da da da.........i knew that i would now........."

Tags:
 

TinyPortal © 2005-2018