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TIMEOUT after match is resumed

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Offline stog

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TIMEOUT after match is resumed
« on: December 10, 2011, 02:19:19 PM »
one thing i didn't like the other day with players on timers -- in the bloody mary tourney, was when my opponent was late . timed out we had started, i was awarded the match, and then i was timed out by virtue of not dropping her, to start my next round match..

i understand that if TD's are particularly busy then the auto timeout/award tbot structure is useful, but if a TD is able, can they over rule or switch off this auto time out for a particular tournament before the tourney starts?

the inflexibility of the auto setup whilst being fine for auto tourneys, isn't very friendly and doesn't really encourage repeat participation; i temporarily felt wtf i must admit

thx though for your work Tom and TD's.

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TIMEOUT after match is resumed
« on: December 10, 2011, 02:19:19 PM »

Offline socksey

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TIMEOUT after match is resumed
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2011, 08:04:56 PM »
When your opponent is timed out due to not starting the match on time, TourneyBot gives you a notice to begin your next match.  You will have to leave the match you're in and finish that another time.  If you don't begin your proper match, YOU will be on the timer/clock.  Sorry, but this seems fair to me.   :mellow:

You must remember that all the other players in the tourney are delayed when matches are not started and played in a timely manner.   :yes:

socksey



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« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 08:11:23 PM by socksey »

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TIMEOUT after match is resumed
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2011, 08:04:56 PM »

Offline dorbel

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TIMEOUT after match is resumed
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2011, 08:23:20 PM »
The purpose of a TD, in a fibs tournament just as in a live one, is to make the tournament an enjoyable experience for all the players. It is true that sitting waiting for your next opponent can be mildly tedious but hey, you are there, make a cup of tea and sit back and relax. Better still, watch the match you are waiting for and pick up some clues. In my opinion, to time out an opponent who has started a match is quite wrong and the TD would do better to use the Tourneybot as a useful tool that can be over-ridden, rather than an inflexible arbiter that must always have the final say.
A friend of mine arrived late for his match in a live tournament to find that his opponent, a world champion* no less, had already been awarded 4 points in their 11 point match. The champion said, "Oh that's alright, I don't want those" and played the match from scratch, and lost! Sportsmanship and the enjoyment of the game should always take precedence over a narrow view of the rules. Tds are, or should be, there to provide the atmosphere in which sportsmanship can flourish.
Who benefited from the decision to time out stog's opponent and then in turn stog himself? Nobody.
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Offline socksey

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TIMEOUT after match is resumed
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2011, 10:53:01 PM »
A good arguement, dorbel, however, the Bloody Mary Tourney is sixtie's forte and he has not been available to oversee TourneyBot most of the time in past weeks.  It was his determination that TourneyBot make these decisions and did not appoint an alternate Tourney Director, so when he is not present, TournyBot rules.   :mellow:  Exception is Tom, since he is the admin. of TB.

Keep in mind, you still have the opportunity to leave the wrong match you are in and get into the match you should be in.  :)

socksey



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« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 11:02:24 PM by socksey »

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TIMEOUT after match is resumed
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2011, 10:53:01 PM »

Offline sixty_something

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Re: TIMEOUT after match is resumed
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2011, 11:20:18 PM »
this is a familiar TourneyBot issue .. i have moved it from the Bloody Mary thread so that we can address the problem and hopefully a resolution without it becoming lost in another location

the issue is a situation that arises when a match is on the clock and is resumed by the players involved yet TourneyBot issues a TIMEOUT while the resumed match is in progress .. in some situations, e.g. resuming at the last minute, the TourneyBot clock cycle is such that the TIMEOUT actually occurs mid-cycle .. the result is that TourneyBot AWARDs the match .. if the players continue to play one another, chances are the player who received the AWARD may actually go on the clock for playing the wrong player .. in some cases, as in the situation with stog, they may receive a TIMEOUT themselves

yes, it can be confusing, but TourneyBot messages are very clear, as socksey pointed out .. if you are told by TourneyBot that you should be playing a different opponent, you will go on the clock and you may receive a TIMEOUT yourself for continuing to play a match that has already been awarded

the Bloody Mary tourney has been running since 7-Aug without a live TD, 19 weeks .. numerous conversations with others were involved in making that decision .. primarily, my decision reflects my belief that TourneyBot is now equipped with sufficient messaging and time control features to run a major tourney without intervention from a live TD .. Tom and i have discussed this at length .. we both felt the Bloody Mary would be an excellent laboratory for testing and demonstrating this feature

during the first 8 weeks there were 3 situations where TourneyBot was unable to start or worse, crashed after registration was complete ..the cause, while very disappointing and annoying, was a bug which is now fully repaired .. thus, we continued the experiment

to my knowledge, there have been no further issues until the one pointed out by stog in this thread

Tom has recently implemented some new code which may better resolve the situation .. i'll let him discuss that
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 11:57:33 PM by sixty_something »
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Offline Tom

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Re: TIMEOUT after match is resumed
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2011, 01:47:48 AM »
Yes I believe this is fixed.

The problem is not that the match was timed out after the resume but that there could be a lag of up to 2-3mins before the timeout was announced.

Now the clock timer checks are done every 30 seconds instead of every 2 1/2 mins.

This has made a big difference.

I am very sure this problem is fixed.

tom

Offline moonshadow

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Re: TIMEOUT after match is resumed
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2011, 06:56:37 PM »
to my knowledge, there have been no further issues until the one pointed out by stog in this thread
Tom has recently implemented some new code which may better resolve the situation .. i'll let him discuss that

Here's another flaw.

I once started a match in a tourney with an opponent. The opponent joined the match, made one move, then refused to move.

Though I was timed out and informed by the bot I had lost the match, my opponent was awarded the win and started playing in the next round.

The TD (i forget who) basically said 'tough luck' and explained that in a stalled match tourneybot times both players out and then arbitrarily assigns the win to one of the players.

This was a deliberate move by my opponent who evidently was well aware of this tourneybot flaw and used it to their advantage .

This might be fixed by programming tourneybot so that, assuming both players are logged in and have not left a match or dropped connection, that whoever moves last in a match will be timed out before the other player.

If sixtysomthings dedication in epicyclic and mind-numbing detail to improving tourneybot and FIBS tourneys is not to get Tom to recreate HAL, then I do applaud his efforts, though in the end its going to come down to humans interacting with other humans and given the history of mankind, not to mention the history of the FIBS community, means its probably doomed from the start unless some steps are taken to insure that it isn't.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 07:03:55 PM by moonshadow »

Offline socksey

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Re: TIMEOUT after match is resumed
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2011, 08:00:34 PM »
If your opponent made one move and it was your turn, you had to move, then your opponent would have been on the timer first and therefore timed out before you. 

socksey



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Re: TIMEOUT after match is resumed
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2011, 08:00:34 PM »

Offline Tom

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Re: TIMEOUT after match is resumed
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2011, 02:15:34 AM »
Yes, Socksey is correct that would be a "thinking > 2 min" on clock message.

You DO need to talk to the TDs if you are on the clock while the other player is stalling
and if you get the WARNING message make sure you talk to the TD

tom

Offline sixty_something

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Re: TIMEOUT after match is resumed
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2011, 02:51:41 AM »
socksey is correct, if indeed what moonshadow described is exactly what happened .. i suspect the situation was moonshadow had subsequently moved and the opponent then failed to make a next move .. if that is the case, Tom, what moonshadow is reporting is a very old bug in the TIMEOUT code .. i think you fixed it long ago

currently, TourneyBot continues to function quite well, IMO, especially on time issues .. otherwise, players would have reacted angrily with justification

regardless, whenever there is a perceived TourneyBot problem, the best procedure is to report it immediately to Tom via FIBS message so that the details are fresh .. Tom has built in some excellent diagnostic details, truly mindnumbing, which can be used to trace a potential problem or, more often, validate the TourneyBot decision
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Offline Tom

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Re: TIMEOUT after match is resumed
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2011, 02:48:54 PM »
Moonshadow, when was that tourney?

I searched for your name and the last tourney report I have with you playing was in July

Did you play under a different name?

There have been a LOT of changes since then

tom

Offline moonshadow

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Re: TIMEOUT after match is resumed
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2011, 08:05:00 PM »
socksey is correct, if indeed what moonshadow described is exactly what happened .. i suspect the situation was moonshadow had subsequently moved and the opponent then failed to make a next move ..

Even though my description of the situation was poorly expressed the only conclusion one can logically draw from what I did write is that my opponent moved, I made a move, then my opponent stopped playing and the players eventually timed out.

socksey's conclusion that sixty something has so emphatically and incorrectly supported completely fails because it does not explain how my opponent made a move and at the same time refused to move, for if my opponent had refused to move, then how could they have made only a single move? Yes, I realize connecting the dots here is challenging. . .

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Re: TIMEOUT after match is resumed
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2011, 08:05:00 PM »

Offline Tom

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Re: TIMEOUT after match is resumed
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2011, 08:12:54 PM »
I do not doubt what you think happened.

There have been many bugs that have been fixed over the past 6-8 months as I have refined and improved the clock handling.

I would encourage you to participate in some tourneys again and if you have any situations that seem improper,
let me know and I will be happy to look at the logs and explain what the bot saw and if there is something that could
be done better I will consider ways of improving it, as always!

Let me know the tourney # and the time you noticed a probem.

Tom

Offline moonshadow

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Re: TIMEOUT after match is resumed
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2011, 08:29:41 PM »
Moonshadow, when was that tourney?

I searched for your name and the last tourney report I have with you playing was in July

Did you play under a different name?

There have been a LOT of changes since then

tom

This was a couple of months ago, probably after Sept.

To reiterate, this is what happened:  Players A and B join a tourney match. Player A moves first, then Player B moves. Its now Player A's turn but they refuse to move. Both Player A and B are eventually timed out, though Player A (the one that intentionally stalled the clock) is unfairly awarded the tourney win and moved to the next round of play.

If as sixty something has claimed this has been fixed, then its no longer an issue.




Offline moonshadow

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Re: TIMEOUT after match is resumed
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2011, 08:32:25 PM »
if you have any situations that seem improper,
let me know and I will be happy to look at the logs and explain what the bot saw and if there is something that could
be done better I will consider ways of improving it, as always!

Will do.

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