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Author Topic: Repbot  (Read 36681 times)
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Patti
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« on: February 21, 2006, 07:52:15 PM »

OK, I'm really frustrated with RepBot.  It's fundamentally flawed, and I'm sick and tired of having people whine to me about it on a regular basis.

I'm about >< this close to tossing it out on its ear.  Anybody want to try to talk me out of it?  Or even better, volunteer to fix the damned thing sooner rather than later?
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« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2006, 08:23:26 PM »

Hi Patti,

While I of course always bow to your wisdom on such matters, I, for one, love repbot as one source of information.  Much like "teaching evaluations" cannot tell one everyting about a course or about an instructor, repbot is one very quick avenue I use to learn about an opponent I've never played before.  Basically, I look to see the number of saved games (granted, the info is slightly dated and available elsewhere) and the general feeling of the fibs community (granted, I usually list the names so that I can see if people I trust have vouched or complained).   So, yes, I use it, and yes, I make decisions on who I will play based on it and other information.  It's certainly easier than shouting, "What does everyone know about PLAYER X?" each time I'm invited.

Is it flawed? Yes.  Is it the only source of information? No.  Do we all have complaints and vouches from people we don't know?  Absolutely.  Do you really need to use it if you're on fibs a lot and know the players?  Probably not.  Is it a great shortcut for information?  I think so, and I would hate to see it dissappear.

mookie
 
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« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2006, 08:23:26 PM »

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tansley
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« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2006, 09:09:41 PM »

I, too, use and value repbot, despite it's flaws.
It does seem to be the quickest and most convenient way to find the number of saved games a player has - the best way I have discovered of keeping my own saved games number low.

tansley
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diane
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« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2006, 09:58:56 PM »

When I joined FIBS I had a very poor connection and my saved games ramped up - without ever having deliberately having dropped a game, I had 30 saved games, and almost enough to take me onto the hall of shame. The one thing that cleared this for  me was repbot 'alert' function.  That allowed me to put things in order and get my saved back to a sensible level.

There are many ways in which repbot is better than the nothing otherwise available on a fast timescale (saved games list etc take time to access - repbot is available directly from many interfaces with almost no delay to playing).

I would love someone to improve repbot - but 'I' cant - and for now - in a system that is intrinsically at risk from those who want to waste our time - repbot is a whole lot better than nothing.

By all means replace repbot - the very minute we have something equivalent or better.....
« Last Edit: February 21, 2006, 10:00:24 PM by diane » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2006, 10:24:08 PM »

I use to check not only the reputation but the complainers and vouchers too. So if a lot of "good" people (that I know) vouch a player then his positive rep must be unbiased. . .

I believe that the bot gives some important information about our opponents and its existence is essential.
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Patti
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« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2006, 12:34:04 AM »

I have a hard time seeing repbot as essential, given that FIBS ran for nearly a decade without it.  I never encounter any problems caused by not having it (and no, it's not just because people know I run the server.)

My problem with repbot is that it's often wrong and it's frequently misused.  Plus, people seem to think it's part of the FIBS service, so I get nagged about it on a regular basis.  My response is always, "It's not an official part of FIBS.  It's fundamentally flawed.  I have nothing to do with it and I won't intervene."  But I get tired of being bugged about it.

Plus, I don't even know who runs it these days, and the (required) contact information in the address field.

At this point, my inclination is to say, "Solve the abuse problems by the end of March, or I'm giving it the boot."
« Last Edit: February 22, 2006, 12:34:52 AM by Patti » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2006, 03:02:29 AM »

Patti,

Clearly, the FIBS consensus would be that repbot should be removed if you are being hassled about it.  Everyone I know appreciates what you do for this community, and I personally HATE that you're being bothered with issues that have nothing to do with the FIBS service itself.

Is there any way we can add a line to repbot that reminds users EACH AND EVERY TIME they use it that comments about repbot ARE NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES TO BE SENT TO PATTI?  

I don't know.  You're absolutely right: FIBS ran for a decade without it, so it's not essential.  But it sure is nice to have it.

It's a shame that, as in many other facets of life, a few dodo heads are ruining something for everyone else.  Shame on whoever you are.

Thanks again, Patti.

mookie
 
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socksey
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« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2006, 03:10:35 AM »

Patti,

I find Repbot invaluable even with the abusers, and I implore you to allow it to stay.

Most of us who frequent Fibs know who the abusers are and look at the list to decide about the reputation.  We even have shouts with the abusers to discourage them.    

Must be newbies mostly who don't know what's what.  Anyway, sorry, you are being bugged about it.  If you want to forward inquiries to me, I volunteer to respond to them.

socksey



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burper
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« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2006, 03:14:19 AM »

The fundamental flaw has spoken!

There was a time when fans of fibs were willing to work pretty hard to make what they thought were improvements. No encouragement from Patti, just her admin style, which is "if I don't like it, I ban it". Who in their right mind would work to improve it past the proof-of-concept stage when the plug might get pulled at any moment? If she had been encouraging instead, a proper Repbot might have been conceived of and written, followed by a fully debugged ChouetteBot etc... TourneyBot had a good run too, but in the absence of anything but Pattis random stomp-on-it-if-I-didn't-write-it attitude, it all went nowhere. Is this criticism warrented? Just act an Italian fibster. She'll shut down an entire country if it suits her.

Patti would tell you the proof-of-concept failed, because she listens to noone and defines the concept in whatever terms suit her. An outside bot can add functionality to FIBS without changing the fibs code itself. This functionality can, and has, been integrated into clients. It is a service people want (check the stats page). It proved some of this to Patti herself, as she responded to it with the droppers hall of shame page. All it took was a beating over her head to do something. I am sure she would deny that RepBot had anything to do with her adding that webpage, but ask anyone who remembers the timing of its' appearance and draw your own conclusions.

A better RepBot could be:
-silent and private with initial accusations, except for the parties involved.
-when enough different people, with enough experience (measured over calendar time, not just amount of games finished) had complained, a user might be moved from CLEARED, to UNDER INVESTIGATION.
-in a UI state, things might still be very private and quietly handled, and the bot might use the 'look' command to make more concrete determinations about droppers, making use of gnubg etc... if the user blinded the bot, that would mean something too.
-users could know who their accusers were.
-there would not be any peeking into matches by the bot without probable cause.

Way back when, I gave all sorts of ideas plenty of thought, as I believed something could be done, and that it was an interesting problem space. Noone else wanted to think about it, unless and until it pissed them off (with one notable exception, thanks Avi). Take a look at the emergence of reputation systems on other websites and servers, and consider the timing of RepBot. It proved plenty, Sure some of that  was some of the problems with such a systems might be.  But it continues to gain in usage, averaging over 500 unique users using it every day.

Patti doesn't want to consider any aspect of it, or even investigate who runs the thing  these days (which she has been told on many occassions, and a moments investigation would reveal to her). I've asked her before why she hasn't killed it, and she has told me she "would rather it went away on its own". Draw your own conclusions.

Patti, if someone bothers you, why don't you just use the gag command?

In parting, let me say, I gave up on RepBot long ago, and believe it has outlived its' experiment and should be removed from FIBS. I bet if you asked Avi (avik) to shut it down right now, he would do so. I would also like to thank maria for being my go-between in this enterprise. Patti doesn't listen to me, and I had an idea a voice from longtime fibs user and fellow female might do the trick.
 
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gammboy
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« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2006, 03:22:05 AM »

Quote
Plus, I don't even know who runs it these days, and the (required) contact information in the address field.

Repbot needs, in my opinion, a major overhaul.  Vouchers should only be accepted for a player with whom you have recently played, and a vouch should be worth 1 point, no matter who you are.  Similarly. a complaint should be worth -1.   Simple as that.  

Any other ideas?  How about a comment for each vouch/complaint?  Then you could have it list the last 10 comments people entered.

GB
« Last Edit: February 22, 2006, 04:26:59 AM by gammboy » Logged
Patti
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« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2006, 03:29:31 AM »

First off, one of the criteria for having a bot on FIBS is that it has to have contact information for the admin in the address field.  Repbot doesn't have that.  I shouldn't have to "investigate" who owns it beyond doing a whois.

If I'm not mistaken, the savedgame page predates repbot.  I assure you one had nothing to do with the other.

A better repbot would not allow bullying-- you could only file a complaint about someone if you had recently played a match against them.  I have deleted hundreds, HUNDREDS of accounts whose sole purpose was to beat someone up in Repbot.  Any design that allows that is totally farkled.

I believe you are entirely wrong about my attitude, which is, "It's perfectly welcome so long as it doesn't cause problems."  It's only when someone or something is a troublemaker-- either by abusing the system or making my work as an administrator more difficult-- that I take action.  I'd prefer to never have to step in for anything, but there are enough jerks that I don't have that liberty.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2006, 03:33:18 AM by Patti » Logged
socksey
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« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2006, 03:39:21 AM »

Burper, I have praised you highly for your efforts always.  You are brilliant, but you have a bothersome streak that allienates those who love you and appreciate you.  You don't know how to accept praise/gratitude for your efforts without biting back.  A quote comes to mind when I think of you.  "Forgiveness is the fragrance of the violet left on the heel that has crushed it."

Being rude to Patti is not the way to win friends and influence people.  Patti has been running Fibs for years for nothing.  She deserves praise, not abuse.

Marie/maria is one who vouches for droppers.  Go figure that one out.  As long as we are aware of this and Repbot has a "list" feature that lists vouchers and complainers we can still use Repbot productively to avoid the real droppers.

Thanks for providing us with the current owner of Repbot.  Perhaps we can get the commands modified to send inquiries elsewhere.

socksey



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maria
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« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2006, 04:24:54 AM »

People who know me know I am opposed to RepBot.
Rename it SavedBot and ONLY have it show how many saved games a person has. Forget all this vouching and complaining.
If someone thinks they have been dropped and they go on the rampage against the alleged dropper, they could get 20 of their friends to complain against this one person.
This alleged dropper would have 20 complaints for one dropped game.
I just don't see the sense of the complaining and vouching.
SHOW THE NUMBER OF SAVED GAMES AND LET PEOPLE JUDGE FOR THEMSELVES IF THEY WANT TO PLAY THE PERSON.
That's my 2 cents.
 
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socksey
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« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2006, 04:31:07 AM »

Maria,

It DOES show the saved games!  That's the one of the saving graces.  Even the abusers can't change the saved games.  If you just look at that and not at the reputation part, you can still judge whether you want to play someone or not.  If you know a lot of players, looking at the list of complainers can tell you a lot too.

socksey



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« Last Edit: February 22, 2006, 04:34:48 AM by socksey » Logged
burper
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« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2006, 04:34:47 AM »

No way maria, I say, if I don't like it, and no matter how many hundreds of users DO like it, exercise my right to be a HUGE pain in the ass to Patti until she shuts it down.

DEATH TO REPBOT!
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« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2006, 04:43:54 AM »

I confess.  I love repbot because it reminds me of Shuggie BEFORE the operation.

Mookie!
 
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« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2006, 06:54:09 AM »

Maybe a simple solution....
Why not put this forum as the contact address?
That way people can put their complains here in stead of dumping them in patti's mailbox.

Taking it out of business is a little harsh on people who use it frequently and rely and depend on it. Sure, it is not perfect.. but Fibs isn't eather and we don't take that offline , do we? rolleyes
« Last Edit: February 22, 2006, 06:55:00 AM by webrunner » Logged

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Patti
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« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2006, 07:46:07 AM »

OK, quick show of hands.  How many of you can tell me what the savedgames list means?

How many of you know that it exists outside of repbot?
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« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2006, 02:08:24 PM »

i vouch for repbot. the reason why was already explained by many others here. so no need for me to do it again. espacially my english is not so good.
and yes i think i know what the savedgames list means and i know about its existance.
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socksey
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« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2006, 02:36:55 PM »

Yes, yes.  http://www.fibs.com/savedgames/list.html  Repbot is so much faster and easier to get to, tho.  Wink

There is a discrepancy between saved games page and Repbot.  Saved games says I have 7 saved.  Repbot says I have 5 saved.  Saved games tells me nothing but saved.  Repbot tells me who complained, who vouched, and saved.  

I have been told saved games in Repbot are erased after 60-90 days.  Patti, can you clarify this for us here?  Are saved games erased on the "saved games" page?

socksey



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« Last Edit: February 22, 2006, 02:38:09 PM by socksey » Logged
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