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Offline socksey

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« Reply #60 on: February 24, 2006, 11:25:59 PM »
I have expored the "friends" feature and I must agree with burper.  The "friends" command gives no reputation, only which of your friends has vouched or complained on a player and the saved games.  There should be no complaining to Patti or anyone about that.

Patti, would you be willing to give this a try?

Avi, can you eliminate the "ask" command?

socksey




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« Reply #60 on: February 24, 2006, 11:25:59 PM »

Offline don

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« Reply #61 on: February 25, 2006, 07:31:30 AM »
FYI:

Several FIBS users have written an interface that will give you saved matches.  I wrote one a couple of years ago, that would give you both the number of saved matches and if you wanted, who they were with.  Its not complex.

What I find amusing is this topic started by Patti, in which she demonstrates her inabillaty to control FIBS by selecting the most reasonable users to attack instead of the repeat users who are really causing her problems.  I just logged into FIBS while writing this, and have seen one racially offensive shout out of one (dipr shouts: wassup, my niggazz!!!).  Get rid of the racists and solve most of the problems, IMHO.  Not that dipr is particularly offensive, he's just following the lead of some of the worst of FIBS, that Patti can't or won't handle.

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« Reply #61 on: February 25, 2006, 07:31:30 AM »

Offline tomkinson

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« Reply #62 on: February 25, 2006, 04:00:16 PM »
While having nothing but sympathy for Patti I cannot help feel it is conceptually wrong to remove Repbot for all its faults.

There is almost no other method available to spot serial droppers or droppers in the making.

However, a simple solution would be to remove any player from Fibs with a certain number of saved games - 20 would seem reasonable to me.

That way we would not need Repbot and the problem would be solved for Patti and the majority of resonable users at the same time.

Tomkinson

Offline don

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« Reply #63 on: February 25, 2006, 05:24:19 PM »
Hey Patti:

I know you have a knee-jerk reaction to anything I say, but I said years ago that the solution to any problems with RepBot was to simply make it objective.  Complaints and vouches can be manipulated by devious users for whatever purposes, number of saved games and with whom are objective criteria.

So duh, just show saved games, either the number or the list.  Two commands:

tell RepBot ask XXXX
tell RepBot list XXXX

No possibility of a scam, and complete discloser of information.  I even wrote the bot and had it online for FIBS at one time.

Example:

tell RepBot ask NIHolympic
    NIHolympic has 30 saved matches

tell RepBot list NIHolympic
    NIHolympic has saved games with the following players:
BLADER Bubblegum CraigHicks Hwood Jean_le_Joueur KingOfHoldem MonteCarlo RubberLass Shadenfreude ___NFL bot_named_sue_II bubba dirkibrasil don donzbot_II furki gBOTcasualplayer georgianpeaches gollum ialwayslose kyri medocrat patriots raspberry resh_lakish rmuller schorfo sugarfreejazz xguestx yossik
[/b]

If the RepBot were limited to these two simple objective queries, potential manipulation would be greatly reduced.  You could refresh RepBot's info with the same macro that I assume you use to save FIBS match information on the same timely basis with one addition to your macro/boot/whatever file.  This would provide MORE information, and THE information many have requested programmed into FIBS over the years without the hassle of programming it into FIBS.  It's a bot!

I would recommend appropriating "RepBot" as a user name, since many are already used to it, but see no problem with a simple "Rep" as a bot-name, or anything else you want.  I believe you have simple access to FIBS doc files so it could show up on the help list, but even if you don't, it would be workable.

As I've said, I've written and tested such a program.  I wrote it in PYTHON, and would be willing to make my source code available.  If you want to test it, I can have it running on my server for a while, though I've not added any refresh commands.  I haven't looked at it for a while, but I was dinking with continuous updates before I got bored.  I'm uncertain what language a perma-bot should be written in, but I'm sure I'm not the only FIBSter who would be willing to invest a bit of time to get an objective, permanent-resident bot, providing valuable information for FIBS.

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« Reply #63 on: February 25, 2006, 05:24:19 PM »

Offline burper

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« Reply #64 on: February 25, 2006, 05:48:38 PM »
Quote

As for burper's friend command solution, I'm not sure that will work terribly well.  What happens if a user is new to FIBS?  Since experienced users already know who the droppers are, RepBot is most useful to newcomers.  And if newcomers can't get sufficient information, what's the value?

So your only complaint is that you don't think it would help people find more enjoyable matches to play, i.e. it does in fact solve the problems you are concerned about?

You have also said that you prefer to stay out of the way and let people solve their own problems. So why not allow this to be tried?

"friends only" is essentially an opt-in system. Any accounts created for registering opinions would have ZERO effect, and thus not be created to begin with. Well, no doubt some "zero" would try anyway, but they would have no effect and thus would not cause anyone to complain to you about it.

The messaging could change to make it painfully obvious that the vouch or complaint you register goes only to those who have vouched for you.

The address line has already been changed. That was a minor oversight.

If it doesn't work, i.e. solve anyones' problems, then why not let it die on its' own, which you have told me privately you would rather see then to force it.

You are willing to live with it as is until the end-of-March, so why not use that time to see if friends-only works? If you said you would give it a fair shake, and avik was cooperative (I believe he would be), then I would certainly make these changes (they are easy anyway).
« Last Edit: February 25, 2006, 05:49:02 PM by burper »

Offline socksey

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« Reply #65 on: February 25, 2006, 06:11:39 PM »
Newcomers usually don't know about Repbot (I'm often asking them if they do, and telling them about it).  

I think the "friends" command is far superior to anything that simply shows saved games.  

For those of us who have been here for years, we know who we can trust (for the most part), so having the list of friends who have vouched or complained on someone we don't know would be of great help in deciding who we will play.  There are at least a few players who have very bad connection problems and thus have a lot of saved games.  This is a good example of how just showing a lot of saved games might not indicate a dropper.

The more I think about it, the better I like Repbot with the "friends" command!  I think we should give it a try.

socksey



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« Last Edit: February 25, 2006, 06:13:38 PM by socksey »

Offline Mookie

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« Reply #66 on: February 25, 2006, 10:17:55 PM »
As I've noted to Burper, my main concern with the "friends" feature is that it might be unfair to those Fibsters who have no friends.  Who are they to trust?  How would that work?  Burper assures me that they can act like they have friends, but then, wouldn't that be embarrassing if one of these folks said, "hey, mookie is my friend," when, in fact, I am not.  I mean, my whole posse would then laugh at me behind my back!  The horrors!

Mookie, who is worried that he'll have to replace his "Vouch Mookie!" schtick.
 

Offline adamosad

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« Reply #67 on: February 26, 2006, 02:40:15 AM »
After socksey’s and webrunner’s replies, I think that the Patti's email problem is already history.

Now if Avik get rid of the ask command no-one will create a new account just to vouch or complain because only the friends command would exist anymore. So if someone decide to create a new account, he must spend a lot of time to convince all the fibs players that he is a non-dropper friend to vouch him (so it's inefficient to create MORE than one as he must play with all the community)... BUT even if someone prove to Patti that one person did that, then Patti must delete ONLY one account instead of dozens of them.

The friend command will do the good job for us (to avoid droppers) and the multi-accounts cleaning will be history (as positive and negative reputation numbers will vanish) and Patti can relax....

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« Reply #67 on: February 26, 2006, 02:40:15 AM »

Offline sarah

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« Reply #68 on: February 26, 2006, 10:18:55 PM »
all this crap to play bg...

Offline don

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« Reply #69 on: February 27, 2006, 03:34:23 AM »
socks.

There are two areas of functionality of RepBot:  saved games; friends.  Of these two, one is objective, the other is not and has been used as a malicious weapon by some FIBS users.

I suggest separating the two and seeing which is more useful.

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Offline burper

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« Reply #70 on: February 27, 2006, 12:46:24 PM »
Quote
There are two areas of functionality of RepBot:  saved games; friends.  Of these two, one is objective, the other is not and has been used as a malicious weapon by some FIBS users.
You are wrong. First of all, there is also the alert function, so that is at least 3. The malicious use you speak of is in regard to the 'ask' function, which is NOT the 'friends' function. I don't think you are getting it, but I value your opinion.

Offline burper

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« Reply #71 on: February 27, 2006, 12:51:12 PM »
Quote
As I've noted to Burper, my main concern with the "friends" feature is that it might be unfair to those Fibsters who have no friends.  Who are they to trust?  How would that work?  Burper assures me that they can act like they have friends, but then, wouldn't that be embarrassing if one of these folks said, "hey, mookie is my friend," when, in fact, I am not.  I mean, my whole posse would then laugh at me behind my back!  The horrors!

Mookie, who is worried that he'll have to replace his "Vouch Mookie!" schtick.
Am I the only one that takes mookies' comments seriously?

One enhancement to the friends function might be to allow users to apply custom weights. That way, if I wanted to make you believe I was your friend, I could say "vouch mookie 0", which would make you appear on my vouch list but add no weight to your opinion. As a counter example, Patti may not be my friend, but because I may value her opinion of others and trust her to finish matches, I would "vouch Patti 100", which would add her to my vouch list with full weight.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2006, 01:16:25 PM by burper »

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« Reply #71 on: February 27, 2006, 12:51:12 PM »

Offline burper

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« Reply #72 on: February 27, 2006, 01:01:32 PM »

Quote
the solution to any problems with RepBot was to simply make it objective.

Agree, but I think we can do better than simply saved games. That's why the objective friends command is better. You not being objective when you select people to vouch for. If you are not, its' only a problem for you.

Quote
So duh, just show saved games, either the number or the list. 
The "duh" sounds kind of insulting, which is why they might have a knee-jerk reaction. Just trying to help.

Quote
I even wrote the bot and had it online for FIBS at one time.
How did it work? Did people use it? Did you open source the code and make it available so that others might be able to pick it up and run with it after you got bored?

Quote
If the RepBot were limited to these two simple objective queries, potential manipulation would be greatly reduced.

Greatly reduced isn't good enough. I believe Patti is going for complete elimination, which is what "friends" would give us.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2006, 01:15:27 PM by burper »

Offline burper

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« Reply #73 on: February 27, 2006, 01:14:23 PM »
Quote
My best guideline is to engage in games with players with more than 1000 experience points.  That may be unfair to beginners...
It may be unfair to you as well! I believe a friends bot would break open the 1000 experience barrier for you and make FIBS an overall friendlier place. The emphasis would shift from complaining to vouching.

Someone could even run a bot that plays only newbies, and registers vouches or complaints based on being dropped. If someone values that data, they could vouch for the bot, say with a weight of 50. The bot could also have some other welcoming features, localized help, etc...

I would step up to the plate and do some coding, but it seems I have been removed  from the RepBot developers list for my derogatory comments about RepBot:
http://sourceforge.net/project/memberlist.php?group_id=53209

I was told it was my "KillRepBotNow" address line that finally pushed them over the edge.

 

Offline socksey

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« Reply #74 on: February 27, 2006, 04:44:39 PM »
Quote
I was told it was my "KillRepBotNow" address line that finally pushed them over the edge.
  :rolleyes:   That might give you a clue!   :lol:

Way back there somewhere in the thread someone said 3DFibs was not connected to Repbot, but it is!  At least that is what it says when the response window comes up.  So 3DFibs would have to be modified for the changes.

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Offline burper

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« Reply #75 on: February 27, 2006, 05:09:30 PM »
Quote
So 3DFibs would have to be modified for the changes.
socksey
Unless it is configurable.
What other clients use RepBot directly like this?

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« Reply #75 on: February 27, 2006, 05:09:30 PM »

Offline adrian

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« Reply #76 on: February 27, 2006, 05:17:15 PM »
I hope that Avi & Alef will put you back on the list. Coding the "friends"  command is not very difficult, more important is to have the data at hand so repbot will continue to work seamlessly.  ;)

Please do it burper! Don`t let  the repbot idea to go away entirelly from fibs  , give it a new life.
Helping people is tricky. Give help to anyone and he will remember it only when he is in need again.

Offline Mookie

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« Reply #77 on: February 27, 2006, 05:44:07 PM »
[QUOTE socksey]Way back there somewhere in the thread someone said 3DFibs was not connected to Repbot, but it is! At least that is what it says when the response window comes up. So 3DFibs would have to be modified for the changes.
Quote


Hmmmm, but does that mean 3dFIBS needs to be reconfigured.  I thought that 3dfibs automatically sends a "tell repbot ask " question about anyone who invites you as soon as the invitation is offered.  If repbot were reconfigured, it would give you the response based on your "friends" list, wouldn't it?  Really, All we would have to do is make the "ask" function only work with reference to your friends list.

THAT IS, rather than getting rid of the "ask" command, just change the function of the "Ask" command so that it gives you the "friends" response.  Then, nothing but the command has to be reconfigured.  

I also LOVE the idea of being able to weigh the value of "friend's" advice.

mookie
« Last Edit: February 27, 2006, 05:45:49 PM by Mookie »

Offline burper

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« Reply #78 on: February 27, 2006, 05:45:02 PM »
Quote
I hope that Avi & Alef will put you back on the list. Coding the "friends"  command is not very difficult, more important is to have the data at hand so repbot will continue to work seamlessly.  ;)

Please do it burper! Don`t let  the repbot idea to go away entirelly from fibs  , give it a new life.
No, I think it may be time for a radical change of some sort. Soemthing more than removing the 'ask' command and even changing the name of the bot. I am thinking along the lines now, of removing the 'complain' command as well.

What effect do you think that would have? If you see someone who has lots of saved games and is not a bot and none of their vouchers appear on your vouched list, then their 'esteem' value would appear to you as zero. You make your decision based on those two numbers. Negative 'esteem' (need a better word) would not be possible.

That is certainly a radical change! There would be no perceived negativity to be angry about in the first place. Maybe that could be tried for some period of time, and then complaints reconsidered once the idea of "localized" opinions sets in.

Being open source code, anyone can grab it and do what they want with it. But you are correct in thinking that only Avi and Alef now have access to the saved databse (which, when I ran it, was publically accessible as well), in addition to whatever value the RepBot "brand" has. But, if you think the function was abusable, then the data is corrupt in some sense anyway. If a switchover to friends-only occurred, it should cause people to review their entire list of vouches in a new light.

Nobody, including Patti has stated that there are any problems with friends-only. Everyone who has addressed it, except for Patti, has liked the idea. Pattis' only beef was that she didn't think people would derive any value in it, but that is flavored with her recent frustration with RepBot in general.

Friends coding has been in place for many years, people just have not discovered it yet for the most part. Perhaps it is too hard to immediately grasp? If you are talking about the effort in switching from its' current functionality to a "friends-ONLY" mode, then it is quite literally a matter of substituting 2 characters for 5 ("ibs" to "riend" in RepBot.java on the line that registers the ask command).
Removing the complain function could initially be a matter of adding one character to "comment out" the complain command registration line. But then you have that ugly output when you list, so you might consider doing a tiny bit more to remove that stuff. Internally, there is still some cruft leftover in handling the complaints tables in the database, but it should do no outward harm.

Offline Patti

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« Reply #79 on: February 27, 2006, 11:24:10 PM »
To be precise, I *did* point out a problem with friends-only mode.

If you start with the assumption that reputation information is valuable, the problem is that the people who most need information, new users, are blocked from getting it.

(n.b. I'm not necessarily agreeing with the assumption, but that's because I think the whole vouch/complain system is flawed.  I've managed to play on FIBS for well over a decade and never found a need for it, and I don't think I've been dropped in the last 5+ years.  Nonetheless, it's the assumption on which repbot is built, so if you want to discuss the continued existence of repbot you need to start with that assumption.)

I honestly think that the right fix is to change the code so that you can only generate an opinion of someone within a very short time window after you have played a match with them.  While there are rare cases where there could be some value in registering an opinion for someone you've had no 'contact' with, almost all of the haven't-played cases are reputation bombing of some sort.

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